Competitive lizards

[AgentP]

So, it looks like I will be trading my ogres for a lizardmen army.  I intend to make the lizards an army I take to more competitive events, and my undead as more of a themed army for friendly/artistic events.  Now, I fully recognize that lizards are not considered as terribly competitive in the current environment, or at least not the flavor of the month that are the elves.  Nevertheless, I think they could make a decent showing.  Here is what I am thinking of.  But hey, I know nada, but I least I admit I don't know!  So I'd really welcome some feedback and advice.

 

Slaan, BSB, Lore of Death [kit out tbd]

 

Scar vet on cold one [kit tbd]

Scar vet on cold one [kit tbd]

 

20 saurus, full command

10 skink skirmishers

10 skink skirmishers

10 skink skirmishers

10 skink skirmishers

10 skink skirmishers

10 skink skirmishers

 

3 terradons

3 terradons

6 ripperdactyls

 

2 salmanders

2 salamanders

 

That comes to 1965.  That leaves me plenty of room for kit, and possibly even enough for anther small unit, maybe chameleon skinks, more fliers, another salamander pack, etc.

 

[thatdave]

I don't think 20 Saurus will hold up long. Maybe with some Life buffs, but I suppose Soulblight could help them. Death is obviously a good lore, but I'm not seeing a lot of synergy with your list generally speaking. Dropped LD and some panic tests, but not a lot else. Besides the typical sniping.

 

A lot if dodgy units (evasive) and shooty, but I don't see a lot if meat in the list frankly. Having said that I do think it could do well in some matchups, though not so well in others.

 

Edit: not much advice I realized (sorry), but I don't know what your model pool looks like nor the play style you have in mind. Those two pieces of information would help in offering something constructive.

[splinx]

I would swap out a couple of the skink skirmisher units for another anvil unit such as Temple Guard to throw the Slann into for a bit of protection. It would also go nicely alongside your other saurus unit as something a bit durable should the need arise. 

[MexicanNinja]

Honestly, that list isn't threatening, IMO.  It's pretty soft.  The real threat is the salamanders.

[ClassicFlava]

In my experience you need at least 30 saurus to stand up to anything. Chameleon skinks have always been amazing for me. Haven't used rippers yet so I can't speak on them. Your list seems to lack cc punch outside of the rippers and cowboys. I would strongly consider focus of mystery on your slann. Having 8 spells that you can change out for whatever lore you want is quite strong.

[ratrek]

Aside from the Cowboys, that is a marshmellow list

 

No setup to get anything more then a lucky snipe from Death. No support to get anything out of the Rippers. Not enough Saurus to survive even a mildly threatening combat unit nor enough to protect the Slann after a miscast (with which Death and how you have to jam the spells through with a large amount of dice will happen).

 

All I see is that Skinks will try and cloud people off and not give up many points while the Cowboys try to make points back with kills and the Slann tries to pull the game out of a draw status to a minor win with a snipe. If it's a W/L/D system, I can see if doing reasonably well with good play. In a 20-0 system it doesn't have enough chops.

[MexicanNinja]

Even the cowboys aren't much of a threat.  just about every unit they fight will be steadfast for a few turns and all it takes is a single coutner charge to get them run down.

 

I've played against rippers and in every game they just bounce off what they charge.  However, they are good at going wizard hunting.  If you use them for that purpose then the sacrifice is well worth it.

 

Those death spells have a short range so that slaan needs to be careful getting into position.  I just don't see the skinks winning the game and the Salamanders are most likely going to take the majoirty of shooting and magic for the first few turns.  Also, that's a lot of panic checks if your opponent just wants to try and LD bomb you from killing a unit of skinks with shooting.

 

There's just no punch in that list.

[Don't Panic]

yea basically what most people are saying... 20 saurus with you slann in it is very vulnerable with the style of lore you have.  quick fix would be changing lores and beefing up the saurus unit.  CF has a good point, the focus of mystery is decent.  life/heavens are great as well with the big toad.  rippers have never done anything to me but just die.. and i bring great targets(war machines) for them so just saying.  they take a little skill to use properly.  yea your list lacks pop but thats not a big deal when you cloud.  maybe drop a scar vet, add saurus/TG, chameleons and lore change.  then thats not too shabby.

[AgentP]

Okay, now that I have the army after my trade, and have a couple purchases to supplement, how would something like this look:

 

LORDS

Slaan, higher state (ethereal), focus of mystery, BSB, +1 MR banner, cloak of feathers (Thus, this an ethereal flying Slaan, 4+ ward, 2+ ward vs spells)

 

HEROES

Skink, Lv1, Ancient Stegadon, Engine of the Gods, Dispel scroll

 

Saurus Scar-Vet, Cold One, LA+S, Biting Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone

 

CORE

35 Saurus, full cmd

10 skink skirmishers

10 skink skirmishers

10 skink skirmishers

10 skink skirmishers

 

SPECIAL

Bastiladon

3 Terradons

3 Ripperdactyls

 

RARE

2 Salamanders

2 Salamanders

[Drak]

can you have a magic banner and magic items on a character?

[AgentP]

Yes, with a Slaan you can

[MexicanNinja]

I like the new list.  Would you be able to get a unit of chameleon skinks if you made each salamander pack only have a single salamander?

[ratrek]

Cloak of Feathers can't go on a Slann. Skink only.

 

Did you mean MR2 some how for the Slann? 4+ with MR1 with be a 3+ vs spells no?

[ClassicFlava]

i ran an ethereal slann for a while.  I found that he was too vulnerable to getting killed by spells like purple sun, dwellers, pit of shades, etc.  

[AgentP]

After reading more of the book and thinking about things, here's what I'm leaning towards now as a 2500 pt army:

 

LORDS

Slaan, BSB, Focus of Mysteries, Reservoir of Erdrich Energy, Harmonic Convergence, Channeling Staff

The Slaan is a lore master of high magic, which I think may be a good lore as the 50% lords rule comes into play, as I expect to see an increase in magic items that arcane unforging may be necessary to deal with.  He rolls 3 dice for channeling, and channels on a 5+.  And he can save a dispel dice and add it to the next turn's power pool.  Given I have effectively two dispel scrolls in the army via the priests, I think this should work in combination to give me a couple solid magic turns.

 

HEROES

Skink Priest, Lv1, Lore of Beasts, Dispel Scroll, 

Skink Priest, Lv1, Lore of Beasts, Cube of Darkness

Each of these guys sits in the Skink Cohort units

 

CORE

30 Saurus Warriors, full command

10 Skink Cohorts, Kroxigor, standard, musician

10 Skink Cohorts, Kroxigor, standard, musician

10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers

 

SPECIAL

26 Temple Guard, full command

4 Ripperdactyl

3 Terradons

 

RARE

Ancient Stegadon, Sharpened Horns

2 Salamanders

1 Salamander

 

My big concerns with this list is (1) the lack of magic weapons, (2) the lack of a scar vet in the saurus, and (3) and lack of a cowboy scar vet.  But I think it's headed in the right direction.  At least worth playing a few games with to see what works as intended and what doesn't.  I see two solid block of infantry that can hold, two small blocks that can flank charge, or clear chaff, and the rippers and stegadon to combo charge to push combats over the top.  The skirmishers give me poisoned shots while serving as chaff, the salamanders provide artillery support, and the terradons hunt backfield for war machines or serve as fast cav annoyance.  It has 7 fortitude, and multiple units than can occupy buildings.

[HeroZero]

Slann needs the Standard of discipline

24 Saurus is plenty, which refund enough almost for a scar vet.

Break the salamanders into 3 packs

1 monster is just cannon bait. It's the least good option in the army you posted.

[Krieger]

Unless I am running Plague Bearers or Chaos warriors I don't like to run less than 40 models in a unit of 25mm infantry. I like to be able to remain steadfast(both for break tests and removing enemy steadfast) , have enough damage output to be a threat (which I need horde formation to do), and be able to take some damage without losing steadfast and damage output.

 

I know that when I see average 25 mm troops with only 30 models. I am not worried about facing it because it's not enough to tar pit or put out a lot of damage. The same can be said for average units less than 50 of 20mm infantry (again unless we are talkimg about elite troops).

[ClassicFlava]

Chameleon skinks are amazing. I would try to find room for some. And yeah scarvet cowboys or ridiculously good. Other than that looks like a solid list

[AgentP]

Played a fun game last night with the lizards, and learned more about how they play.  Based on that, and people's suggestions, here is iteration #3 of the list:

 

LORDS

Slaan, BSB, Focus of Mysteries, Reservoir of Erdrich Energy, Harmonic Convergence, Channeling Staff, Standard of Discipline

The Slaan is a lore master of high magic, which I think may be a good lore as the 50% lords rule comes into play, as I expect to see an increase in magic items that arcane unforging may be necessary to deal with.  He rolls 3 dice for channeling, and channels on a 5+.  And he can save a dispel dice and add it to the next turn's power pool.  Given I have effectively two dispel scrolls in the army via the priests, I think this should work in combination to give me a couple solid magic turns.

 

HEROES

Skink Priest, Lv1, Lore of Beasts, Dispel Scroll, 

Skink Priest, Lv1, Lore of Beasts, Cube of Darkness

Each of these guys sits in the Skink Cohort units

Saurus Scar Vet on Cold One, great weapon, light armor, dragonhelm

1+ armor save, 2+ flaming ward save, this guy is a single handed tarpit

 

CORE

29 Saurus Warriors, full command

10 Skink Cohorts, Kroxigor, standard

10 Skink Cohorts, Kroxigor, standard

10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers

 

SPECIAL

26 Temple Guard, full command, champion with warrior bane

4 Ripperdactyl

4 Ripperdactyl

3 Terradons

10 Chameleon Skinks

 

RARE

1 Salamander

1 Salamander

 

Swedish Comp:  9.5

 

So you'll obviously notice the lack of big monsters.  I figure end times will see two things.  More characters with magic item toys, and a resulting increase in cannons.  High magic gives me a tool to take care of the first, leaving the cannon bait at home gives me the tool for the second.  The combo charges and support will have to come from working the two big blocks in concert with the small cohort unit and the rippers.  

[HeroZero]

I've never once found reservoir of eldritch worth it.

Those points easily should be a stubborn crown on the cowboy. That's the money shot.

 

As for the channel gear set up. I've tried it a lot now and. find it lacking. I always end up wishing that I'd just brougt a cheaper option ( power stone )

 

High magic lore will.disappoint you a lot. Lore of life will not. You cannot out fight elves regardless of WS or initiative. Go with what will give you the advantages.

(ToV, +Toughness, dwellers)

 

Split those chameleons into two units unless you desperately want high magic.

[MexicanNinja]

Your weakest link is the saruas scarvet.  Sure, he can survive low S attacks and flaming attacks but what about S5+ attacks?  Force enough saves and he'll fail one of them.  He's no where near being the tarpit you may think he is.  If he gets charged by a unit with 20+ models he's already loosing combat by 5 and you have to do max wounds from him and the cold one to just match the CR of big blocks.  If they manage to get even a single wound through you're looking at taking a LD test at -3 in most cases and if you charge maybe it's -2.

 

A crown of command will allow him to get into combat, issue challenges, and if he loses he's on an unmodified leadership.

 

I don't know the point costs of sauras cav or rippers but i'd suggest a unit of 5 knights as a delivery system for your scar vet.  As of right now, he has no LoS for shooting or magic and he's going to be a target for some of the high powered shooting because you don't have monsters to take that threat away from him.  He may end up being easy points for your opponent in a lot of games.

 

The rippers are going to be a huge let down in most of your games.  They are the underperformers of your current list.  Honestly, the terries aren't that great either.  I have yet to play a game agianst them when they actually do something productive with the rocks and they don't do much on a charge either.

 

I would suggest a single unit of either the rippers or terries and use the points elsewhere.  A few combat characters split between your temple guard or even 2 in your warrior block will go a long way in the long run.  This will give you some models to produce extra CR.  The temple guard should be good without any character support but if you were to toss 2 vets in your warrior block (one of them equiped with sword of anti-heroes) you can swing a combat very quickly if he isn't targeted and killed.

 

I actually like the hight magic on your Slaan.  You have the option to swap out spells for other lores which will be beneficial against certain match-ups.  I also have to agree that unforging can be a great tool.

[AgentP]

Every battle report I've read praises the rippers, and they are universally lauded as one of the best units at lustria-online.  So unless I see for myself that they are unworkable, they are staying in the list for a while.

 

The cowboy is not a tarpit for massed infantry, he is there to stick units without rank bonuses, like cavalry, monstrous cav, chariots, etc.  He's LD8 on 3 dice (take the two lowest), so he will statistically hold regularly at -1.  He should only be getting stuck into things that are getting combat res through (1) wounds, (2) banner and (3) charges.  He can control the charges.  And if anyone is doing 2 wounds to him, he's dead already.  So the Crown is really only mitigating banners, and I don't think for that minimal impact the points are worth it.

[HeroZero]

With a crown he stops ranked units, which is an amazing utility.

 

Rippers out perform cold one riders by miles sorry about your experience MN but they are miles beyond most other choices. (When the player isn't a derp and uses his toads right)

 

Honestly dismount the scar vet, and put a foot vet in those Saurus.

Scar Vet, shield, enchanted shield, light armor, crown of command, 10 point magic weapon

That would give you two 100% stubborn bricks

(Although its so much better with an old blood and competant defense / offense )

 

MN- the swap ability is pretty random and depends on success. It's pure win more ability.

LoLife- ToV saves you from losing the game instantly on a miscast. That cannot be understated. Toughness fixing Saurus makes them just good enough for combat

Unforging is just a gimmick, I'd much rather either kil them or save my guys with my power dice.

[Romes]

I think the crown prevents a sufficient defensive kit on the scar vet (he only gets 50 points!)

 

Dismounting the scar vet makes his saves worse are really limits movement (and charge distance!)

 

Agent, I think you're spot on with the scar vet, he is a utility piece specifically in there to deal with what lizards are bad at - single tough models that make flee shenanigans not work and get to your skink lines. The ideal example is a core chaos chariot which is a nightmare for skinks and gets gibbed by a scar vet.

 

They're in the lizardman list to fill those holes.

 

I like the rippers, but I think they take some practice. We have a player out here using 3 units because they're cheap in swedish and the performance of the units has really changed between game 1 and game 15 with the list. They're not intuitive to use, and you have to turn them around backwards a fair amount of the time, but I think the learning curve may be worth it in the long run. *hint* experiment running them with champs and using odd formations and shapes.

 

My main issue with the list is the saurus. Every time I set up against a lizard player with a Saurus block this is exactly what goes through my head: "Yes! Points I know I can get to." You're playing a mobile hunt and peck army, and, in my experience, the saurus don't really have the staying power to change that equation. Remember that a scar-vet with a charmed shield and talisman of preservation can join a unit of rank and file skinks just fine - he'll shrug one cannonball at least and safe against bolt throwers. 

 

 

 

I would say that playing competitive lizards is one of the hardest things in the game to do well. In order to win you will be doing a lot of fleeing a lot of careful re-directing and sacrificing of units. It's very difficult to get it all right and I suspect you'll have a number of games where one small mistake in the movement phase will translate into a blown game. I guess the point is, if you start playing lizards and you lose your first 10 games, don't lose heart, that's normal! You will get better and better at skink shenanigans and eventually successfully finish a game with your opponent bewildered how he never got any meaningful points!

 

Also - try out wandering deliberations. 0.0

[HeroZero]

Saurus plainly saying are thoroughly mediocre.

Witthout a character in the unit they will repeatedly lose combat against most elven combat units, most WoC, most dwarves combat units and quite few other selections

Their saving grace is 4+ AS/6+ parry and coldblooded.

Without stubborn its much too easy to deny their steadfast, put them on a 5 and run them down or grind the out.

 

If your bringing.non TG Saurus you must be stubborn. The rest will fail due to the relatively slow nature of the army.

 

That's why buffs are so critical on Saurus too.

 

Rippers are fantastic, there are reams of pages on how to use them. The key isn't to throw them away needlessly. Also buffs buffs buffs.

Wyssans makes them insanely good.

 

Life light/shadow and beasts are where battle line lizards live.

 

(Skink cloud is about ethereal slann and shadow/death)

 

Also. Skinks win you games but lose you.more.