Smalll but important FAQ update

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Rule #1 still applies: Don't be a dick.

Opps. Forgot about that rule Sorry guys.

 

I can see an issue here but without testing it I don't know the full impact yet.

[JMGraham]

To me, being a dick is not taking your opponent into account while list building, playing, etc. I agree that bringing a list that fits the guidelines set forth by a tournament is not being a dick, it's playing the game set forth by the TOs. In casual play, being a dick can often result from not having a discussion with your opponent ahead of time about list-building expectations, play experiences, etc.

 

"The End Times are here so now I can subject my clubmates to all sorts of horrible ignoble and degenerate atrocities ... And there's nothing they can do about it, because GW says so!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!" is being a dick. I don't see anyone in this thread suggesting that is what they want to do, but that general maxim, "don't be a dick", is a really good thing to keep in mind. To expand:

 

1) Does my opponent know what to expect from the type of list and play style that I'll be bringing?

2) Does my opponent consent to the type of list and play style that I'll be bringing?

3) Do I have a good reason to suspect that my opponent and I will have a mutually enjoyable experience?

 

If the answer to those 3 questions are "yes", you're not being a dick! Plenty of other ways to be a dick during gameplay, but I've always felt that composition is the sportsmanship you display before the game starts.

 

In short: if it's consensual and it doesn't do any harm, it's probably ok. Consent requires being informed, however.

[MexicanNinja]

I actually don't like this rule.   Bear with me!

 

Different people think different things make people a dick. The rules is fine with a "here are all the other rules which explains exactly what that means in a clearly defined way". 

 

To me, no one is being a dick while they build their list within the rules laid out by the tournament, they're making a legal choice in a strategy game and I'd better have a counter or a strategy to mitigate. Other people think taking a no-holds barred list to a tournament with no comp is being a dick. Who is right? Why should one person get to judge another when there was no objective standard laid out?

 

Maybe this isn't an issue back in the Northwest (which i honestly half believe because I'm homesick and at this point the streets of Portland are paved with cheese and everyone is super nice) but where I am now too many people spend too much time judging other people's moves in what to me is inherently a strategy game on some self defined moral compass. =/ I find that very frustrating.

 

I'm already signed up for two tournaments when I come back, and I'm really excited for both, but list building is much harder for one than the other. One is swedish, your tournament, and the list I'll be taking is about a 10, I'm still tweaking. There's no stress in the list building, it's swedish, so I can take what I want and the score differential deals with power level issues. The other is no comp, and I'm having a very hard time making a choice of what to bring. It sounds like a great event, and I'm really looking forward to it, but the list building is stressful because I want to A: bring a list that is not under-powered compared to whatever the most broken lists people bring are and B: bring a list that other people won't think makes me a dick.

 

Where is that beautiful grey area? It depends on the subjective perceptions of my opponents as to what constitutes a dick. Which is why I don't like rule #1.

 

TLDR: Different people define dick differently and that makes me sad.

I couldn't agree with the satement more.  Well stated!

[wisetiger7]

... with wizards taking lore of undeath.

"Page 162 – Spell Generation

At the end of the second paragraph, add:

“The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard.” "

 

Except Teclis.

And the Loremaster.

And any other Wizard that doesn't "generate spells following the normal rules".

[Romes]

To me, being a dick is not taking your opponent into account while list building, playing, etc. I agree that bringing a list that fits the guidelines set forth by a tournament is not being a dick, it's playing the game set forth by the TOs. In casual play, being a dick can often result from not having a discussion with your opponent ahead of time about list-building expectations, play experiences, etc.

 

"The End Times are here so now I can subject my clubmates to all sorts of horrible ignoble and degenerate atrocities ... And there's nothing they can do about it, because GW says so!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!" is being a dick. I don't see anyone in this thread suggesting that is what they want to do, but that general maxim, "don't be a dick", is a really good thing to keep in mind. To expand:

 

1) Does my opponent know what to expect from the type of list and play style that I'll be bringing?

2) Does my opponent consent to the type of list and play style that I'll be bringing?

3) Do I have a good reason to suspect that my opponent and I will have a mutually enjoyable experience?

 

If the answer to those 3 questions are "yes", you're not being a dick! Plenty of other ways to be a dick during gameplay, but I've always felt that composition is the sportsmanship you display before the game starts.

 

In short: if it's consensual and it doesn't do any harm, it's probably ok. Consent requires being informed, however.

 

I hadn't even considered the idea of people doing that within their own club/casual play. 0.0 Good point. I was just talking about tournaments.

 

I am now remembering a certain player in a GW store a couple years back when I just started.... point taken. =P

[AgentP]

Totally excited for this.  It frees me up to bring large, pretty, and horribly over-costed models at the expense of a more sensible army build.

[rudra34]

Yeah!  now you can bring a lord-level vamp on your coven throne :)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

The one issue I see with the Lords with no core is CR. My Orc Boyz start with 5 CR even if they get charged. Now if I get the charge and a flank and my lord or BSB scores some wounds my CR will beat a couple kitted out lords even if they scored a lot of kills.

[dkieft]

I am dreaming up ways to build armies with 2 units and then all characters. Yay!

 

 

Also, my High Elf dragon list might actually work better... before it was two naked Princes on dragons and two almost naked Dragon Mages... now I can equip them up and maybe afford better dragons! Maybe even make it 3 Princes and 3 Dragon mages!

[valourunbound]

How does the Lore of Undeath work with Skaven? Since a Gray Seer is allowed to pick what lore he wants on the spot, is the choice to roll a spell or two from Undeath permitted? Or does he have to declare he is using Undeath in the army list? Or is he simply not allowed to use it at all?

[MexicanNinja]

Skaven are not allowed to use the Lore of Undeath because they have fixed lores they must use.

[MexicanNinja]

I am dreaming up ways to build armies with 2 units and then all characters. Yay!

 

 

Also, my High Elf dragon list might actually work better... before it was two naked Princes on dragons and two almost naked Dragon Mages... now I can equip them up and maybe afford better dragons! Maybe even make it 3 Princes and 3 Dragon mages!

This is the type of list I would want to know I'm playing before I showed up for a game so I could make sure I have the tools to stand a chance.

[MexicanNinja]

The one issue I see with the Lords with no core is CR. My Orc Boyz start with 5 CR even if they get charged. Now if I get the charge and a flank and my lord or BSB scores some wounds my CR will beat a couple kitted out lords even if they scored a lot of kills.

That's the choice one must make.  Killy over sustainability.  You still have to have 25% core in the army so I'm not really understanding the statement about no core.  However, 3 orcs on a wyvern is something to behold!

[rudra34]

Skaven are not allowed to use the Lore of Undeath because they have fixed lores they must use.

 

Lore of undeath may be taken by any wizard, regardless of current or previous lore restrictions.  I would say that taking the lore of undeath on a grey seer forfeits your ability to take ruin and plague.

[Threejacks]

The one issue I see with the Lords with no core is CR. My Orc Boyz start with 5 CR even if they get charged. Now if I get the charge and a flank and my lord or BSB scores some wounds my CR will beat a couple kitted out lords even if they scored a lot of kills.

Indeed...and I`m assuming there`s no Hit and Run BS rule like 40k has so its still viable to build a list with good tar pits for 500+ point solos?

 

Seems to me to be a nice addition to the rules as I know from OnG`s that there are many times I wish I could exceed my 25% hero`s to get more baby sitters on to the field.

 

I think many will try full on Lord/Hero builds but in the long run they will return to a more conventional lists..it just seems like it would be very easy to fall into an "eggs in one basket" trap.

[MexicanNinja]

Lore of undeath may be taken by any wizard, regardless of current or previous lore restrictions.  I would say that taking the lore of undeath on a grey seer forfeits your ability to take ruin and plague.

Yup, looks like you're 100% correct.  I was unable to open the FAQ all damned day until now.  I was just confused with an earlier post.  Go go undeath on a grey seer with the option to still swap for 13th.

[MexicanNinja]

Indeed...and I`m assuming there`s no Hit and Run BS rule like 40k has so its still viable to build a list with good tar pits for 500+ point solos?

 

Seems to me to be a nice addition to the rules as I know from OnG`s that there are many times I wish I could exceed my 25% hero`s to get more baby sitters on to the field.

 

I think many will try full on Lord/Hero builds but in the long run they will return to a more conventional lists..it just seems like it would be very easy to fall into an "eggs in one basket" trap.

I think this greatly helps O&G armies.  You can spam more black orcs to quell animosity across the table now.  You can also stick a ton more naked gobo heroes with great weapons in the army.

[mojoslayer]

I actually don't like this rule.   Bear with me!

 

Different people think different things make people a dick. The rules is fine with a "here are all the other rules which explains exactly what that means in a clearly defined way". 

 

To me, no one is being a dick while they build their list within the rules laid out by the tournament, they're making a legal choice in a strategy game and I'd better have a counter or a strategy to mitigate. Other people think taking a no-holds barred list to a tournament with no comp is being a dick. Who is right? Why should one person get to judge another when there was no objective standard laid out?

 

Maybe this isn't an issue back in the Northwest (which i honestly half believe because I'm homesick and at this point the streets of Portland are paved with cheese and everyone is super nice) but where I am now too many people spend too much time judging other people's moves in what to me is inherently a strategy game on some self defined moral compass. =/ I find that very frustrating.

 

I'm already signed up for two tournaments when I come back, and I'm really excited for both, but list building is much harder for one than the other. One is swedish, your tournament, and the list I'll be taking is about a 10, I'm still tweaking. There's no stress in the list building, it's swedish, so I can take what I want and the score differential deals with power level issues. The other is no comp, and I'm having a very hard time making a choice of what to bring. It sounds like a great event, and I'm really looking forward to it, but the list building is stressful because I want to A: bring a list that is not under-powered compared to whatever the most broken lists people bring are and B: bring a list that other people won't think makes me a dick.

 

Where is that beautiful grey area? It depends on the subjective perceptions of my opponents as to what constitutes a dick. Which is why I don't like rule #1.

 

TLDR: Different people define dick differently and that makes me sad.

 

 

Agreed!!!!!  

[Murphy'sLawyer]

That's the choice one must make.  Killy over sustainability.  You still have to have 25% core in the army so I'm not really understanding the statement about no core.  However, 3 orcs on a wyvern is something to behold!

Sorry, just exaggerating to make a point. If you spend all your points on Lords and Heros you will have nothing left to support them. And if you take one or two units only with all your Characters in them then I am not sure what to think. I will have to stall it hard and hit it with Foot of Gork over and over.

 

Honestly that would be the most boring game ever. I really am going to have to wait till I see more.

[MexicanNinja]

It's really no worse than it is now ML.  I could pack a ton of characters in to any unit from any army and go to town.  Like you said, if someone is making a bigger deathstar then hit it with more deathstart counters.  All it does is make the target more ideal.

 

You still need to decide what to drop for your characters.  Of course, there will always be the crazy combos people could come up with and well, it's part of the game now so really the only thing to do is accept it for what it is and move on.

[wisetiger7]

Lore of undeath may be taken by any wizard, regardless of current or previous lore restrictions.  I would say that taking the lore of undeath on a grey seer forfeits your ability to take ruin and plague.

Yup, looks like you're 100% correct.  I was unable to open the FAQ all damned day until now.  I was just confused with an earlier post.  Go go undeath on a grey seer with the option to still swap for 13th.

The second paragraph in the Spell Generation section of the BRB states:

 

When you chose your army, you should have selected which Lore of Magic each of your Wizards is going to use... This will sometimes be one of the Lores of Battle Magic - the eight most commonly used sorcerous disciplines included in this rulebook, but many Wizards have race-specific spell lores to choose from as well, as described in the appropriate Warhammer Armies book.

 

The new FAQ states:

 

Page 162 – Spell Generation

At the end of the second paragraph, add:

“The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard.”

 

This means that choosing Lore of Undeath is a part of normal Spell Generation, as per the BRB.

 

I agree that grey seer should be able to use Lore of Undeath. Any Wizard should, except those that say something like 'this model does not generate spells like normal, but instead do blah blah blah', like Teclis and the Loremaster (and probably others).

 

GW is really effing lazy and doesn't like to do things correctly. They don't seem to remember their own rule that states:

 

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a Warhammer Armies book. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the Warhammer Armies book always takes precedence.

 

This specifically says that the way your Grey Seer uses spells stated in the Skaven army book supercedes the BRB. The way to select spells in the Skaven army book takes precedence over the way you select spells in the BRB. If it didn't take precedence over the BRB, then Grey Seers would be able to choose Lore of Fire or Lore of Life, etc.

 

If GW actually did it properly, they would have errata'd every Army book to state that their Wizards could also take Lore of Undeath, not to lazily put it in the BRB. Just another classic example of the lackadaisical effort on GW's part. They just wanted to rush the rule out there so they could start selling their overpriced, game-unbalancing models. Way to go GW. Hope your new CEO gets fired too.

 

Oh, and don't even get me started on the new Wood Elf "FAQ".

 

Tl;dr - All wizards should be able to use Lore of Undeath (except Teclis, Loremaster, and the like). And GW are full of greedy idiots.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

It's really no worse than it is now ML. I could pack a ton of characters in to any unit from any army and go to town. Like you said, if someone is making a bigger deathstar then hit it with more deathstart counters. All it does is make the target more ideal.

 

You still need to decide what to drop for your characters. Of course, there will always be the crazy combos people could come up with and well, it's part of the game now so really the only thing to do is accept it for what it is and move on.

Already excepted and have been looking at my Army Books and Wyverns on Ebay. And honestly after the first End Times book leaked the rules I knew this day would come. Just not sure what it means for the Meta yet. It could be good after all.

[dkieft]

One side effect of the points allowance change I have been considering is that it actually makes Warhammer more accessible to new players. If you can put 250ish points into 2 basic core units, then add 750 points in characters you have to buy/build/paint far fewer models for a legal1000 point list. This says nothing for game balance, but putting a new army on the field just got a ton easier.

[King Mekhet]

I, for one, and super, super stoked about this rules update. 50/50 Lords and Heroes opens up a whack of new and interesting builds. I felt that some of the armies were starting to get a bit stale as you were just seeing the same options over and over again. Now we'll start seeing generals riding dragons, skaven pushing two bells, demons bringing bloodthirsters. TK might actually bring a tomb KING now now that it's not eating into the wizard allowance. Vampires...well I'll admit my bias and say that I'm super excited to bust out both my vampires at the same time (because hero vampires are garbage).

It'll be an adjustment, but I think it'll be a good one in the end.

Edit: Also, has anybody else been following the epic whine-fest on the WargamersUSA boards? Hilarious. This is what happens when comp gamers get it into their heads that they play this game competitively. How can you call yourself a competitive gamer if you don't know how to deal with filth coming at you across the table?

[Munkie]

Yay! Mazdamundi can be taken in normal sized games now!