Skaven and Swedish Comp

[Norrad]

I have had a long time love for Skaven but until now I have never been interested in building and painting 200+ models.  Recently though, I have felt like taking the plunge and getting my horde assembled and onto the table.  I have always leaned towards Clan Pestilens as the main focus of my list with the other clans filling small bit roles in the list.  At least it looks cool in my minds eye.  So I sat down the other day with army builder, a cup of coffee and my imagined pestilent list and got to work.  I finally arrived at a 2500pt list that I feel would be fun to play, and also fun to play against.  After I was done with Army Builder I went to the Swedish Comp calculator and thats when things went awry.  Why are Skaven comped so hard?  Is it possible to make an effective Skaven list that can comp in at the 10 range band?  Here is my proposed list.  Is this more powerful than I am giving it credit? [swedish comp score in brackets]

 

2500pt Skaven

 

Grey Seer - Talisman Preservation, Earthing Rod [-45]

Warlord - Shield, Fell Blade, Warlitter [-10]

 

Chieften - BSB, Halberd, Armour Fortune [-12]

Plague Priest - Lvl 2, Flail, Foul Pendant, Plague Furnace [-7]

 

50x Slaves [-11]

50x Slaves - musician [-11]

1x Giant Rat Pack [-2]

1x Giant Rat Pack [-2]

38x Clan Rats - Full CMD, Shields [-5]

36x Storm Vermin - Full CMD, Razor Std, Poison Wind Mortar [-15]

 

35x Plague Monks - Full CMD [-27]

1x Hell Pit Abomination - Warpstone Spikes [-38]

1x Plague Claw Catapult [-5]

1x Warplightning Cannon [-20]

 

War Machine Penalty [-38]

Swedish Comp Score = 5.6

 

So there's the list.  Nothing too terrible.  No dual cannons or Hell Pitts.  No multiple units of Gutter Runners with poison slings. Not much in shooting.  This list moves forward, stalls other units with the slaves and tries to hit hard with the monks and storm vermin.  Unless I calculated my Swedish Comp Score incorrectly, where is the power in this list.  I am not seeing it.  So what are your thoughts on how to make this list less comp angry without giving up the flavor of Pestilence.  Thanks for the help.

 

[valourunbound]

Good news: Skaven aren't hit by the War Machine Points section, only Orcs & Goblins, Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs and Empire are.

 

Bad news (sort of): I came up with a score of 81, or 8.1

 

The following is a breakdown of where I found differences from your numbers.

 

Grey Seer with Earthing Rod is -48

 

1st Rat Dart is - 2

2nd Rat Dart is -5

 

35 Plague Monks with a Furnace is -30

 

This brings your list to an 8.1, which is not a terrible score. Yeah, it isn't a 10, but you do have an unbreakable horde. That doesn't scream "I brought this list because I like green" (even if you did). Just taking the Furnace out brings your list to a 10. You are correct that you did not go overboard in any one fashion (magic, shooting, combat stickiness), but you did bring at least one of everything. This means that you have a direct tool for any problem that your opponent throws at you. Direct is the key word. Other armies are forced to have non-direct methods to deal with things, which (allegedly) results in more interesting games.

 

Your direct solutions are: 

1. Throw the HPA at it (fixes most issues)
2. Shoot it with the WLC (often gets the job done [unless MurphysLawyer says misfire {I'm not bitter at all}])
3. Grey Seer (enough said)
4. Plague Monks with Furnace (If they can't handle it, it doesn't need to be handled)
5. Stormvermin with Fellblade (for whatever survives the above)

Having solutions is not a bad thing (it's kind of the point of the game) but this list is considered "Average" because there are a decent number of units that can handle anything. Each unit is self sufficient, and can get any job done by itself. I would say that a "Friendly Army" is one that has few direct answers (maybe 1 or 2), and a "Powerful Army" is one that has many direct answers.

 

Final thoughts: Your army isn't too hard and is still rewarding to play. The Furnace is really good, but that isn't your fault, and there is nothing you can do about it (without removing it). I wouldn't change a thing about your list before you've had a chance to play it. 

 

 

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Ah man, I swear I don't have Jedi power. It was suppose to be a joke where I was going to say "Ahhh..." but it just made me look bad. Sometimes coincidences happen.

 

But you did have your vengence and almost tabled me, viciously.

[Norrad]

Thanks for the response.  It figures that I would mess something up with the Swedish Comp system.  I have never used it before now.  I am using 1.14.1 for my calculations.  I'm not sure about your numbers but I still calculate the Grey Seer with Earth Rod at -45, both Rat Darts at -2, and the 35 Plague Monks with Furnace at -27.  Where are we getting the differences?

[valourunbound]

I am using... 1.13.5. Well crap. I figured July 22nd was pretty recent. Wow they update it a lot.

 

Grey Seer was reduced from -43 to -40, then with Earthing Rod is -45.

The Rat Dart penalty was moved from each unit after the 1st to each unit after the 2nd.

And Plague Monks with Furnace says -27.

There you go.

 

At least I was right about wmp :) 

[Norrad]

Yah, thanks for the clarification on the Warmachine Points.  I thought that if you took any warmachines that you took the penalty.  I guess I should have looked at the other lists for clarification.  So without the additional penalty I gave myself for warmachines, I calculate this list as a 9.  Not bad.  A little juggling and i could probably get it to a 10.  Nice middle of the road as far as comp goes.  

[WarlordGhrom]

My Skaven armies usually are in the 10-11 range for comp it seems.  I took my 2800 pt one and got 10.4 or something like that.

 

For me I dropped the WLC, only had one unit of slaves that wasn't too big (I believe 40ish).  I took 3 units of clan rats instead.  Also didn't have the earthing rod or warlitter.  Didn't take any rat darts as I found they really didn't help me much in general and I prefer to get stuck in and let my opponent feel I'm going that direction.

It's possible to make a fun Skaven list that isn't too heavily comped.  Just need to only take a reasonable amount of power choices.

[Sylvos]

An average power list is 8-13 why bother juggling?

Not to mention the sweedish comp has to be revised and modified to compensate for End Times so at this point I would not worry about your rating.

Especially since no decisions have been made as to how the team event is going to be run.

But for spitballing, just keep it cool brah keep it cool.

[Norrad]

My Skaven armies usually are in the 10-11 range for comp it seems.  I took my 2800 pt one and got 10.4 or something like that.

 

The Swedish Comp system is not made for 2800 point level.  It was designed for 2200-2600.  So without modifying the core Swedish system I would not rely on any numbers you got.

[Norrad]

So the rat horde construction has begun.  Im really liking the new Skaven clanrat/slave set.  Even the rats from Island of Blood look good.  I did some internet poking around last night and some of my choices are either spot-on or close to some of the "Net Lists".  That will not do for my likes.  I will get back to the drawing board and change up some stuff.  I was contemplating adding in another unit of Monks and possibly dropping the Storm Vermin.  Ill get something into army builder and post it up for comments later today.

[valourunbound]

That is exactly the problem I've been having with skaven recently. There isn't enough variety.

 

No matter how hard I try, most of my skaven lists end up looking just like everybody else's. The most variety i have is my rare choices: doomwheel, hpa or wlc?

>.>

 

I think the issue with the subpar choices is that they are SO BAD. Night runners for example. I'd love to use night runners. But I just can't bring myself to spend that many points on a unit that will not do anything more than a clanrats or slave unit. Other problems stem from rule change shock that is lingering from the 7th to 8th switch. For example, plague censor bearers. In 7th, they were point and shoot. Any unit they hit would die. Now, any unit they hit will kill them before they even strike. PCB are a unit that I still intend to experiment with.

 

Other useless or sub par units include: rat swarms (nobody runs any swarms, much less these), ranked giant rats (haven't given up on these yet), warp grinder, ratling gun (oh how the mighty have fallen), vermin lord, rat ogres (hard to control their frenzy with low leadership), jezzails (nothing wrong with them, just low ROI) and PWG (same as jezzails; used to have purpose with min size 2+). That's a lot of sub par units for one book. How many do other books have? One? Two? Skaven have 10. And I'm not even being competitive here. If I were, I'd include plagueclaw catapults, warpfire throwers and doomflayers. But I like warpfire throwers and doomflayers, so I'm going to keep them on the good list :)