MexicanNinja Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 The Vamp and the dragon are a single model, each model only tests for pit or purple sun once at the highest initiative available. Template weapons hit both the rider and the mount. They both take the test on their own initiative value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudra34 Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 This is one of the most argued points in 8th edition. We may just have to agree that there is no cut-and-dry answer and leave it to a ruling or a dice off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 This is one of the most argued points in 8th edition. We may just have to agree that there is no cut-and-dry answer and leave it to a ruling or a dice off. Really, this is the first time I've seen it argued. I'm going to do some more research tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudra34 Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Go for it :) I've found thread after thread of people arguing both sides haha. Hooray for ambiguity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Under the section of ridden monsters, it says that when the monster's base is touched by a template, either from a spell or warmachine, then both models are hit. If there is a strength difference (ie stone thrower), then randomize to see who gets hit by the higher strength. Under characteristic test, it said that in the case where a model has more than one value (or unit), then use the highest. So basically, the dragon and the vamp are hit, but as they are a single unit, they both use the highest value. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Under the section of ridden monsters, it says that when the monster's base is touched by a template, either from a spell or warmachine, then both models are hit. If there is a strength difference (ie stone thrower), then randomize to see who gets hit by the higher strength. Under characteristic test, it said that in the case where a model has more than one value (or unit), then use the highest. So basically, the dragon and the vamp are hit, but as they are a single unit, they both use the highest value. The FAQ states that if the unit needs to take a characteristic test then the highest value is used. It also states that if each model needs to take a characteristic test then each model uses there own characteristic value. The spell I used for my example says that each model needs to take an initiative test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 my understanding is that as a single model with split characteristics both the dragon and rider are hit (this following the template rule) and they both test off of the highest value (following the FAQ). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 my understanding is that as a single model with split characteristics both the dragon and rider are hit (this following the template rule) and they both test off of the highest value (following the FAQ).That's not what the faq states. If a "unit" is forced to taked a characteristic test then the highest value is used. If "each model" needs to take a characteristic test then each model takes the characteristic test using their own characteristic value. If a lord and dragon are hit by a stonethrower or cannon they are each hit seperately because of the template rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valourunbound Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 OK, I kind of get it. Basically, 90% of the time, each part of the dragon/rider model tests independently. However, if it has to take a panic check (only unit wide test I could think of) it uses the riders leadership. If there are other unit scope spells or abilities, then you use the rider (assuming it's higher). Most spells that would run into this say "each model in the unit/under the template." I cannot think of many characteristic tests that specifically say "the unit" other than leadership tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Ok, I said I would do some research of my own for this topic and at this time I have completed such research. I completely agree that if a ridden monster needs to take a characteristic test that it will use the riders characteristic if it is higher than theirs. The only thing I was able to find was that spells, such as those from Lore of Death, which specifically pick a target will use the characteristic of the targeted model. So, yup, both the rider and monster take a characteristic test from spells which use templates and then they both use the highest characteristic value. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 sweet I was correct in my understanding! that feels good :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Ugh, I hate to be a fly in the ointment, but the section on characters and mounts kind of spells things out differently. Page 105 of the little red book. Under Templates. Here is throws things all out of whack because it states the term "model". In the case of a stone thrower, which inflicts hits at two different strengths, only one model will be hit at the higher strength (assuming that model's base is under the center of the template). Yada yada yada... All other models are hit at the lower strength value. It is the only place I have seen them reference the rider and mount as separate models. In other sections, they refer to them as character and mount. But there....it uses "models". So therefore, in the case where a template spell makes each model take a test.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savion47 Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 I will definitely be there next week for some Warhammer as it has been far to long. This weekend sadly I will be driving down to CA to celebrate a stunning victory with some old friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Ugh, I hate to be a fly in the ointment, but the section on characters and mounts kind of spells things out differently. Page 105 of the little red book. Under Templates. Here is throws things all out of whack because it states the term "model". It is the only place I have seen them reference the rider and mount as separate models. In other sections, they refer to them as character and mount. But there....it uses "models". So therefore, in the case where a template spell makes each model take a test.... Yes, it does state each model takes a characteristic test but since it is a single model they will both use the highest value. The rules for the template just means that both the rider and the mount will have to take the characteristic test, for spells which use a template, but then they will still use the highest characteristic value. The only thing I was able to find in the FAQ was that if the monster or rider is hit by a spell which picks out the target, like Fate of Bjuna (which I believe was the spell they used in the FAQ example) then you will roll against that target characteristic and not the highest. So yes, both the rider and the monster are hit by the template and yes they both take a characteristic test, but they will use the highest value when hit by a spell like purple sun, pit of shades, or black horror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 So doe that apply if you have a vamp in a unit of zombies and they get hit by the spell? Do the zombies get to use the vamps Init? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxer Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 a vamp in a unit of zombies would all be individual models. A rider mounted on a monster is a single model, it has a single base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 if the spell says 'unit' then yes they would get the vampires stat, if it says 'model' then they would use their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Yes, but that was my point in the above quote. In describing what happens when a character on a monster mount gets hit with a stone thrower, it references the rider and mount as separate models. Hence, they would each take the test on their own init, just like that of a unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudra34 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 So are we ONLY bringing lords and heroes this week, or is it just no point limitations on lords and heroes Either way, i think I'm only bringing characters >:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I'm bringing a handful of masters on cold ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindog Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 So are we ONLY bringing lords and heroes this week, or is it just no point limitations on lords and heroes Either way, i think I'm only bringing characters >:) Rudra, You can bring as many heroes and lords as you like. However, somebody can still take a standard list or a list with 25 core and 75% lords and heroes, etc…. RD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 im bringing 2 organ guns and 3 canons.... either that or just hero/lord beasts... i got my doombull finished! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindog Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 im bringing 2 organ guns and 3 canons.... either that or just hero/lord beasts... i got my doombull finished! If you bring cannons, you still need to take min core, etc…… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Just to be clear if we take anything from the Special or Rare we first have to meet our min Core? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindog Posted November 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2014 Just to be clear if we take anything from the Special or Rare we first have to meet our min Core? Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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