Jump to content

Haemonculus Covens


Lord Hanaur

Recommended Posts

The codex supplement is kind of interesting.  The book details a series of Formations and then also the Detachment for a "normal" Haemonculus list called the Covenite Coterie Detachment which is intended to be the "normal" Coven list.

 

If you combine all the Formations, you can form a Carnival of Pain Formation kinda like forming Voltron, which comes with some additional cool rules that are in addition to the individual rules the different Formations give themselves.

 

I decided to build up a Haemonculus Covens list but lack the models for a full on Carnival of Pain.  Nonetheless I did come up with what I think would be a potent first stab at it and I'm going to try and finish a trade tomorrow that should give me the models I need to complete it.

 

The Freakish Spectacle special Rule means that units within 12" are at -1 LD.  Pretty cool.  The Latest Experiments rule gives you a shot at one of 6 abilities for the Grotesques: +1 STR or Toughness; Fleet, Shred, Rage or 4+ FnP.  You roll and get that for all the Grotesques in that Formation.  The Warlord Traits for the Coven are useful.  The Warlord Trait this list probably wants is Master Artisan which gives your Talos within 12" re-rolls on their FnP rolls.  The Trait that gives "it Will Not Die" to Grotesques is meh because it looks good but by the time round 2 rolls around, with that many Haemonculus around, they will get it soon enough anyways.  The Covens give a chart for Power From Pain that in order gives you:  Nothing, Fearless, Fear, It will not Die, Zealot and then Eternal Warrior.

 

The list is HEAVILY anti-infantry in nature, but it can crack hardened tanks like crazy with Haywire, Monstrous Creatures, and tons of STR 5 melee attacks.  The big downside here is that Power From Pain does not give Furious Charge to Coven lists so that does hurt a little.

 

There is no objective secured in the list and obviously, anti-air is nonexistent other than perhaps TL Haywires.  It definitely wants to spend its day engaged in lots of bloody handed fights and it wants to do everything in its power to avoid being shot.  It is after all only 42 models.

 

Thoughts on the list?


Grotesquerie Detachment (Freakish Spectacle and Latest Experiments Special Rule)

140pts    Urien Rakarth

190pts    4 Grotesques (Aberration W/Agonizer, Liquifier Gun)
60pts    Raider (Aethersails)

190pts    4 Grotesques (Aberration W/Agonizer, Liquifier Gun)
60pts    Raider (Aethersails)

Corpsethief Claw Detachment  (Freakish Spectacle, and Scout Special Rules)

650pts    5 Talos (Feel No Pain, TL Haywire Blasters)

Covenite Coterie Detachment (Freakish Spectacle special rule)

85pts    Haemonculus (Liquifier)
85pts    Haemonculus (Liquifier)

120pts    7 Wracks (Acothyst w Flesh Gauntlet and Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
60pts    Raider (Aethersails)

120pts    7 Wracks (Acothyst w Flesh Gauntlet and Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
60pts    Raider (Aethersails)

120pts    7 Wracks (Acothyst w Flesh Gauntlet and Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
60pts    Raider (Aethersails)

2000 Points

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Grotesques and Talos (Taloii?) are basically your only threats; the Wracks, even with upgrades, aren't really gonna do much damage to most things, save really weak units like Tau/Guard. And the Talos, while certainly capable of doing damage, are gonna be very slow in coming even with Scout- turn three or so is likely when you'll see most of your assaults happening, which isn't terribly early. During that time, you have very little capability to do damage-the five Haywire Blasters aren't really going to put that much hurt on most tanks (it's killing ~1 every other turn if they have cover, which they probably will against infantry-speed models) and five Raiders will disappear in pretty short order even when Jinking.

 

That leaves the Grotesques on foot and exposed, and while they can pretty easily be in the enemy's face turn 1 if you go first, that alone isn't really enough to save them- you won't always go first and it isn't that hard to kill them off once they're disembarked. (They are, generally speaking, tougher than a Marine against pretty much any weapon, but not as tough as three Marines by a long shot.) Should they into assault they certainly can do some damage, but I don't think you can give them great odds of doing so when almost nothing else in your list is a threat on turns 1-2; with 2000pts of the enemy shooting at two units, if they can't erase them they are spectacularly incompetent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Im all about this supplement! I love the Dark Artisan formation which rocks in games i have used them in. Once I get a few more models i will be trying out some of the other formations as well. Are you planning on play testing this line up? I would be interested to know how it fairs! 

Yes Sir, and soon.  I will endeavor to do a battle report.  I have recently been testing a Tau army I built to give away to a friend and am satisfied with its performance (5-1, damn those Soul Grinders to hell) but I have not been able to actually play my OWN armies and because of a vacation I literally have no games in with the new Dark Eldar codex.  sigh.

 

So this is the early stage of the list. 

 

The list will cordon the main section of the enemies force on turn one while the Taloi move and run upfield.  I have done this a large number of times with Dark Eldar and it works well.  Obviously I was using different units and different rules so time will tell.  The Raiders will be very close to the enemy given that they can move 36".  This also allows them to effectively deploy further than any but 48"+ range guns can reach if I go second.  The Taloi should ensure no escape is possible as they jaunt to the 27 inch line in round 1.

 

My vehicles will then Jink.  I chose Raiders for their extra Hull Point since I dont really plan on shooting them.  On average it will take 6 successful hull breaches to kill one.  I'm willing to concede that they will be trying to kill the ones with Grotesques in them and that they will succeed.  The Grotesques will be blown out and survive it easily in my opinion.

 

On my second turn, both Grotesque units and possibly the Talos will be charging.  The Talos will be at 27" so a move takes them to 33" and an average charge takes them to 40".  So in that scenario, whether they charge will largely depend on two things:  how the enemy deployed and whether the Raiders were able to trap the unit closest to the Taloi in place (which is the goal).

 

Once the Taloi are this close, the bloodfest begins.

 

One idea I am REALLY strongly contemplating is going with 5 Grotesques in one Raider and 3 plus the Haemonculi in the other.  This makes both units quite dangerous and allows for us to join the Grotesques AFTER we get blown out.  Now if the enemy blows 5 Grotesques out they may then be tempted to pour some fire into them instead of the other Raider.  This conundrum really helps me.  It also makes the 5 Grotesque unit more ideally suited to anti-tank duties.

 

In any event, it seems quite likely that we will be assaulting turn 2.  The Wracks will not probably get out of their vehicles immediately but instead rain fire on the enemy units.  Two Liquifiers per unit is no small thing.

 

another option is to put the Haemonculus units in with the Wracks and force an even tougher choice on the enemy:  fire at the Grotesques?  or fire at the Haemonculus Wracks?  And then if so, they are more likely to fire at the three man Grotesque Raider instead of the 5 just because its easier to eliminate, leaving the 5 in good shape.

 

Lots of options but that is how I hope it will perform.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My vehicles will then Jink.  I chose Raiders for their extra Hull Point since I dont really plan on shooting them.  On average it will take 6 successful hull breaches to kill one.  I'm willing to concede that they will be trying to kill the ones with Grotesques in them and that they will succeed.  The Grotesques will be blown out and survive it easily in my opinion.
 
Raiders are definitely the right choice (both for HP and for transport capacity), but keep in mind that six glances/pens really isn't all that many, and anything with Ignores Cover- included SMS, Thunderfire Cannons, and other medium-strength weapons- have the potential to do a lot of damage to you.
 
I'm presuming you put a Haemo with each Grotesque unit, because otherwise you're gonna get Pinned/fail morale really quickly and have a bad time of it. Falling out of the transport itself won't do all that much damage to you, but one you're out you're looking at 6+/FNP, which really isn't all that tough to drag down even when it's T5/W3- Bolters might not do the job all that well, but all of those mid-strength weapons that so many armies (not to mention Poison!) will do a real number on you.
 

On my second turn, both Grotesque units and possibly the Talos will be charging.  The Talos will be at 27" so a move takes them to 33" and an average charge takes them to 40".  So in that scenario, whether they charge will largely depend on two things:  how the enemy deployed and whether the Raiders were able to trap the unit closest to the Taloi in place (which is the goal).

 

You're making a ton of assumptions here that I don't think pan out- that the enemy can't anticipate your deployment (smart players often can); that terrain will not slow you at all (it almost always will); that you can just move in a perfectly straight line directly towards the nearest enemy (rarely true, as you often need to hedge your bets against several targets); and that the enemy is unable to maneuver in any way to avoid you (unlikely, given that your very own strategy requires doing such things.)

 

It's not an awful concept for a list, but I think you're being very optimistic about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You speak as if I'm new to the game. :)

 

I think your appraisal of the damage Ill take and the acumen of the enemy are probably where we differ.

 

Two realities here: one is, the enemy that turtles has absolutely played into my hands. The enemy that spreads out loses significant amounts of firepower to bring down on any one piece of the puzzle( and i can outflank).

 

Also: the enemy may be assault based or balanced in which case I do not have as much to fear. If they are pretty much shooty, that is the force I must accept some losses against w this kind of approach. BUT even a shooty army will suffer badly unless they are ensconced in armour. So an armoured shooty force might be the worst case.

 

So assuming that type of enemy, with therefore a fair blizzard of high str shots, im going to lose more Raiders in round 2. That will be a good first army to test it against.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Had my first test game with the Coven Book for Dark Eldar.  As promised, I decided to play it against the worst case scenario I outlined in the post above.

 

I faced TWELVE Chimeras (yes really) with plasma/melta vets festooning the board.  Hammer and Anvil.  He went first.  No Night Fighting.  Hoboy.  I only deployed 5 Raiders.  Chose not to seize.  We played the Scouring mission.  He had 10 of the 15 points over on his side of the field so he was sitting pretty if he wanted to be.

 

The list did a decent job of coping with the armor, even though my list essentially only has 5 guns in it that can kill tanks...  and he had TWELVE.  Hehehe. 

 

a Few observations:

 

1.  Twelve is a lot of damn armor when you don't have much anti-tank shooting.

2.  Twelve Chimeras fire like 72 STR 6 and STR 5 shots turn one.

3.  Entire army was objective secured except the HQ's so he had 20 Obsec units.

 

So there's that. 

 

A lot of brave Imperial Guardsman did a lot of herding duties to keep my units from running around them to gank the tanks which were obviously his most important assets. 

 

Worst part was, I had to line up, let him fire turn one, then bum rush him without a shot and let him do it AGAIN turn 2.  And not until after he had done that could I hurt anything. So it was a lot of incoming firepower to be sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 Chimeras is only 36 shots. I wouldn't count the snap firing heavy bolters as shots. My list was far from the worst yours could face. Lets face it I had 12 chimeras and nothing else. There was no way in my army to do damage to your talos. The handful of meltas might kill one or two but not five. I look forward to the rematch with the deamons but if you want to cut your teeth with an actually mech list I could make that happen also. I was just running chimeras to run chimeras. So un optimized.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll admit, super tempted to take a 5-man talos unit formatioin as "come the apocalypse" allies and outflank them. They would be an amazing disruption unit. Very close to the cost and value of a super heavy, even as "come the apocalypse" allies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 Chimeras is only 36 shots. I wouldn't count the snap firing heavy bolters as shots. My list was far from the worst yours could face. Lets face it I had 12 chimeras and nothing else. There was no way in my army to do damage to your talos. The handful of meltas might kill one or two but not five. I look forward to the rematch with the deamons but if you want to cut your teeth with an actually mech list I could make that happen also. I was just running chimeras to run chimeras. So un optimized.

12 Chimeras fires like...  3x12 and 3x12.  Thats 72.  I guess you had two or three with heavy flamers now that I thank about it though.  Still.  Lots o shots.  Plus passnegers.

 

Mech is what I needed to face most with this list, in theory.  Hordes seem highly susceptile to my large number of high STR attacks and Instant Death means monsters are going to have to be really sleective as to WHEN they go in against my assault units.  That leaves aerial attackers and probably just super Psykers as my main issues.  Your Daemon army has both, or can.

 

I suppose a little luck in casting or in Denying would go a long way in such a game as Daemons provide.  Dark eldar don't have an answer to Psykers which is why I kinda just...  Well basically I'd just have to focus on the things I CAN handle until the other choices are few enough in number that it doesn't matter.  I feel null deployment against those Daemons of yours might be a way to go.  They've schooled me three of the last four times, and the other one was a tie (because I was an idiot at the end).

 

Anyways, for those interested in the list, here's the final numbers:

 

Dark Eldar:  Line Breaker + Warlord + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 5 Corpsethief Claw points  = 17

 

Astra Militarum:  Line Breaker + First Blood + 3 + 2 = 7

 

MVP's:  CLEARLY the Grotesques had to do most of the work in this game, but the Corpsethief Claw was the closer and it has to get the nod, even though it killed less than its points I'm pretty sure.  It was a rock of Gibralter against which there was no answer...

 

Cue the music:  Dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUUUN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chimeras get six shots, not twelve. You're thinking of Eldar and Dark Eldar when you talk about transports that get twelve shots a piece.

I think he said 12 chimeras with 3 shots each, then adding the 3 shots for heavy bolters. for 72 shots on those 12 chimeras.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will note that the chimera looks better on paper than it preforms in most games. It's the facing related issues. Not only is side arc AV10, but if the chimera's side faces the enemy, they can't use the hull weapon shots on that enemy either. Often, your paying for just the 1 weapon and the transport which is functionally AV10 against mobile targets.

 

SM razorback is often better, even with the stock TL HB. Same cost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Front AV12 is kinda huge over AV11. The Taurox has arguably a slightly superior armament, but the Chimera gets more shots (both from having two guns and from fire points/Lasgun Arrays), is tougher, and has superior fire arcs (turret mount vs. fixed).

 

Also, the Razorback is significantly inferior to the Chimera. Worse capacity, no fire points, no secondary armament, no Lasgun Arrays. 11/11/10 is roughly equivalent to 12/10/10 in terms of overall protection, but the Chimera functions much better when Shaken/Stunned (due to relying on weight of fire anyways) and has better options for transporting (like Veterans) most of the time anyways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well they do... sort of. Its called a taurox. The taurox with autocannon is much better then a chimera I think. But I already own 14 chimera so there is no going back now.

Side armor is still 10 and the front arc is TINY.  Wouldnt bet on those.  Chimeras are better.  I had tried to put Chimeras in the Militarum Tempestus list because I liked them much better however, then I realized its illegal to do so.  Lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Side armor is still 10 and the front arc is TINY.  Wouldnt bet on those.  Chimeras are better.  I had tried to put Chimeras in the Militarum Tempestus list because I liked them much better however, then I realized its illegal to do so.  Lol.

Don't agree. Though I think the value of each very much depends on how you use them.

 

Taurox is superior for a backfield gunline or for one that operates in cover. An extra 12" of stock range is amazing. Stock dangerous terrain re-rolls is also great. Though the best change is that it has 3 access points - access points are this invisible difference that really matters in-game.

 

I will note that a smaller front arc is a double edged sword, as it means it's easier to conceal the front facing (for better cover), but also impairs front shooting weapons.

 

Chimera is superior if you plan to put it in the open. The turret is nice too. Mobile command vehicle is also a very solid option for HQs. On the chimera, the real annoying bit is that you can't put them in the backfield with their back to the edge (or impassible terrain or another vehicle), as models inside will need an emergency disembark if it's destroyed because they lack the access points. Amphibious rule remains iffy until people use water features more at local tables.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Autocannon is the main reason you want the Chimera, just take the FW version that has an Autocannon upgrade for +5pts. That Front AV12 makes them drastically more survivable at long ranges, and while the access points and DT rerolls are nice, they don't make up for being significantly harder to kill and significantly better armed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Autocannon is the main reason you want the Chimera, just take the FW version that has an Autocannon upgrade for +5pts. That Front AV12 makes them drastically more survivable at long ranges, and while the access points and DT rerolls are nice, they don't make up for being significantly harder to kill and significantly better armed.

Totally agree that the FW version is awesome. Wasn't talking about that, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I've played a lot of games with Militarum Tempestus now, using four Taurox Primes in the force (see blog for some details and other posts here).  That front arc absolutely comes up.  Have no doubts about it.  Those things are not long for this world unless you're just outranging the enemy...but then if you're doing that you're probably not using the Taurox Primes speed and if you're not doing that then the army loooks VERY different.  Taurox Primes are not there to gun line it for you, beleive me!

 

As for the Corpsethief Claw Detachment, it didn't care.  Haywires don't care and their claws don't care.  Nothing short of Land Raiders is gonna' save you from those things.  And Imperial Guardsman don't have Land Raiders.

 

The Grotesques were absolutely fantastic despite not using their "Latest Experiment" upgrade much at all.  but its a free upgrade so meh.  As in previous games, they were just great.

 

The fact that so much stuff was Objective secured kept him in the game right to the end though.  The strength of that Astra Militarum list isnt just in its hulls and number of shots.  It was in its scoring ability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...