Haemonculus Covens

[Guest]

Well I've played a lot of games with Militarum Tempestus now, using four Taurox Primes in the force (see blog for some details and other posts here).  That front arc absolutely comes up.  Have no doubts about it.  Those things are not long for this world unless you're just outranging the enemy...but then if you're doing that you're probably not using the Taurox Primes speed and if you're not doing that then the army loooks VERY different.  Taurox Primes are not there to gun line it for you, beleive me!

The primes are a whole different ballgame, as they are more expensive than the chimeras by a wide margin. I really don't think the primes are a very good investment, even in that codex.

 

 

As for the Corpsethief Claw Detachment, it didn't care.  Haywires don't care and their claws don't care.  Nothing short of Land Raiders is gonna' save you from those things.  And Imperial Guardsman don't have Land Raiders.

It does have one solid weak point, it can only charge what it shoots, and has no rules to shoot at multiple targets. They outflank, pop one vehicle, can't change unless said vehicle was a transport and the transported unit is alive and in LOS. Especially with haywire, the odds that you shoot and have nothing to legally charge is quite high.

 

The lack of invulnerable does also mean that they are exceptionally susceptible to D weapons. Pretty sure no FNP against D, either.

[Lord Hanaur]

Taurox Primes are pretty decent.  Their speed is a very big strength for my force.  THATS why you take em.  It's not for all the cool firepower, though that does not suck either.

 

The Claw does have Feel No Pain so there's that.  and they get It will Not Die eventually...which is not a small thing.  And then when you thought it couldn't get any worse, YES, toughness 7.  So it's up hill to wound them, and with Cover and Feel No Pain?  that's a bonafied Deathstar.  Not as fancy and complicated as other ones, but still as scary as anything ever needs to be.

[Guest]

The Claw does have Feel No Pain so there's that.  and they get It will Not Die eventually...which is not a small thing.  And then when you thought it couldn't get any worse, YES, toughness 7.  So it's up hill to wound them, and with Cover and Feel No Pain?  that's a bonafied Deathstar.  Not as fancy and complicated as other ones, but still as scary as anything ever needs to be.

For cost, D weapons are a reasonable response. They deny FNP and cover and will remove d3 wounds per model hit without a roll on toughness.

[Lord Hanaur]

For cost, D weapons are a reasonable response. They deny FNP and cover and will remove d3 wounds per model hit without a roll on toughness.

now all you have to do is find a way to get D Weapons into every army, then get the claw to assault it instead of shoot it.

 

It's easy to say X because Y.  But the reality is, short of an Adamantium lance or something, I'm thinking that 90% of the armies arent going to have enough D weapons to make it an issue.  Some fights you just cant win and when you cant... run.  Am i right?  I mean it isnt as if you have to engage the unit that has the perfect answer to you either.  sometimes a unit just has to accept that its sitting this one out for a round.

[AbusePuppy]

It's not like Str D is the only way to hurt it, though; there are lots of things which are quite effective against the Corpseclaw formation, from Bikes with Grav to Broadsides to Wave Serpents to Knights to Poison/Sniper and more. High-toughness MCs with 3+ armor are pretty common in the game, so most decent armies should be bringing a good number of ways to hurt them.

[Lord Hanaur]

I wouldnt put Wave Serpents on that list.  Flat out wouldn't.  Not enough time for them to do anything.  IN round 2, I will probably crush two of their hulls, and shoot a third to death.  Sure it could happen with Serpents I spose but the force is ultra fast and isn't going to give them that kind of time.  The Claw doesn't act in a vacuum.  And if he goes first I reserve and play the late game so that he cant stop me from reaching him.

 

Grav is the easy answer to everything and like I say:  you might just have to outflank if thats what they are toting.  Its a legit consideration for sure and I dont disagree.

 

I Already mentioned Knights but there would have to be more than one (ergo my mention of the Lance).  One can't do it.  But I agree that an Adamantium lance type of formation could pump out the attacks it would need to and might be in good enough shape when the confrontation comes to actually do it.  Or it might go the other way.  The Knights are not immune to damage is what I'm told?  If I can whittle the Lance down to one or two I might be okay.  Maybe.

 

MC's cant hang with five of them, period.  There's no MC that's straight up going to scare 5 of them.  MAYBE later in the game but by then, that monster is as likely to be gobbled up by instant death Grotesques as they are the Talos anyways.  It's not a matchup thats super likely to happen in game without some really good explanation to me why my Grotesques aren't on the job.

 

Again, Im not hear to measure nether regions unit by unit.  But then most games arent won by how many dudes you killed either, so on some levels, I dont care.  Even if they get caught in a fight they cant win, they can engage in it LATER and perhaps perform a holding action to allow me to take the real prize.

 

Only more games will tell me any of that.  But it's the first game I have played with Coven and it was a smashing success.  See what I did there?

[AbusePuppy]

If you think that your foot-speed MCs are going to get turn 2 assaults on a Fast Skimmer....

 

...Well hey, at least you're optimistic, I guess. Or playing on a 3'x3' table.

[Lord Hanaur]

I wasnt talking about the MC's charging turn 2.  keep up.

[Guest]

now all you have to do is find a way to get D Weapons into every army, then get the claw to assault it instead of shoot it.

Daemonology (Santic) is a route to accomplish this. Imperial Knights in melee, Stompa in melee, khorne lord of skulls in melee, and so forth. Most armies are either able to bring D weapons should they want, or don't need them...

 

Anyway, it does seem like a great disruption unit. Might be worth the base 600pts, just to get them to shoot at that, instead of your main force. The leadership penalty has lots of applications and just adds to the opponent's need to shut the unit down. T7 is the cut off for lasgun fire...no worries from flashlights.

[Lord Hanaur]

the formations stack.  So the -1 LD can be -3 in this list as well, if the units are close enough.  thats a back breaker for some things, especially for Daemons and their instability or whatever.

[AbusePuppy]

I wasnt talking about the MC's charging turn 2.  keep up.

IN round 2, I will probably crush two of their hulls, and shoot a third to death. 

 

So you were talking about destroying Wave Serpents, but not through shooting (because that's specified in the last clause of the sentence) and also not through assaults? Now I'm even MORE interested in this secret third phase of the game that DE can kill transports during!

[Lord Hanaur]

The Grotesquers will kill two Wave Serpents in round 2 and the Talos kill the third (if we are fortunate, jinking and all)

[AbusePuppy]

Because the Grotesques, which are wounded on 2s and have 6+ armor saves, are going to survive the Serpents' shooting how, exactly? Are you just assuming you'll pass those ~20 FNP saves like a boss every time, guaranteed?

[fluger]

AP, while I think that LH is probably optimistic, I think you're being pessimistic with his chances here.  

 

Assuming it takes one wave serpent to down a raider, it would take 2 wave serpents to kill two.  Yes?  That's actually quite an assumption though because while the serpent shield should be netting you 2-3 hull points a shot, the scatter laser is looking at about.6 as well.  So, on average, yes, you should take out a raider in one volley with one wave serpent, but if you leave a hull point on it somehow (say you roll only 2 shots on the shield for instance?), now you have to put a second wave serpent onto the raider.  Regardless, let's just assume 1 to 1 with the wave serpents.  

 

Most Serpenty lists will have 5.  So you have 3 serpents to put shots into the grotesques.  

 

The shields should be putting about 2 wounds per volley (4.5 * .888 * .8333 * .8333 * .666)

The scatter laser should be putting out about 1 wound per volley (I'm assuming 5+ cover, but it doesn't really alter it too much here)

 

So, each wave serpent is killing about 1 grotesque a turn.  3 Wave Serpents kill 3 grotesques.  

 

So, 5 wave serpents should destroy 2 raiders and kill 3 grotesques, leaving LH with 5 Grotesques.  However it is also conceivable that only 2 grotesques were killed as one wave serpent failed to finish off a raider.  Regardless...  

 

Now, had LH gone first, those vehicles would've already moved up super fast pretty much anywhere they want to (aethersails), and it really only takes a single grotesque to get into melee with a wave serpent to really start causing a ruckus.  So, even if the units were split up to 1 and 4, the thought of him assaulting and wrecking two isn't off the charts ridiculous.  

 

Now, the question that comes into play is terrain (of course).  What if there is a nice piece of LOS blocking terrain that LH could have hidden his grotesques behind?  Conversely, what if there was lots of difficult terrain that the grotesques had to move in?  

 

The other thing to ponder is what else is in the Eldar List?  A wraithknight with S10 shooting and high initiative melee could be a nice counter to the grotesques, and most Eldar lists bring one.  Now, it runs the risk in melee of being killed with poison and instant death, but the odds are lowish.  

 

With all those factors in mind, I think that this isn't as much of a fool's errand as AP thinks, nor as much of a slam dunk as LH thinks.  

[PourSpelur]

Well laid out critique that takes both sides of the conflict into consideration and comes to a conclusion that is neither black nor white?!?

You Sir, are using the internet wrong;)

[AbusePuppy]

AP, while I think that LH is probably optimistic, I think you're being pessimistic with his chances here. 

 

Well, for one, you're ignoring the third gun on the Serpents, which is adding three more S6 AP5 shots to the mix. There's also the matter of the Avengers (or other units) inside, which will also add significantly to their firepower- and just as importantly, screen them from charges in many cases.

 

 

The other thing to ponder is what else is in the Eldar List?  A wraithknight with S10 shooting and high initiative melee could be a nice counter to the grotesques, and most Eldar lists bring one.

 

I think this part is pretty key. Five Serpents- which I would agree is pretty standard for such a list- with the common loadout is only about 1000pts. That leaves another 1000pts (as LH's list is 2K) for whatever the Eldar player wants to bring. Three Wraithknights and an HQ still leaves them with a large chunk of points to play with and that will absolutely devastate LH; the Poison/ID on his big hitters won't be relevant because they'll never get to swing, not with the Wraithknights bringing down S10 shots and fists on them.

 

But it's not just Wraithknights- War Walkers, Warp Spiders, Hornets, and most all of the other common inclusions in Eldar lists will also eat him up as well. Eldar MCs are tougher and Eldar excel at spamming mid-strength shots out with high accuracy, something that terrifies DE. And they have excellent access to allies in the form of Tau and the Imperials, so even stuff like Knights or Broadsides are a distinct possibility. Even a non-optimal list should absolutely crush those poor Grotesques on turn 1 while still being able to maneuver pretty easily, so the idea that he's going to get turn 2 charges- outside of a lucky 6" run followed by a 11"/12" assault or the likes- is pretty absurd.

 

 

Well laid out critique that takes both sides of the conflict into consideration and comes to a conclusion that is neither black nor white?!?

 

Halfway between the two ends of the disagreement isn't automatically the "right" answer. That's the Golden Mean fallacy right there.

[Lord Hanaur]

I think there's a distinct difference between laying out my plan and saying its a slam dunk Fluger  =)

 

However, there's another thing that Abusepuppy isn't considering with me.  I am infinitely comfortable and adept at using reserves and terrain.  There are people here who can attest to it.

 

So in the case where the Serpents are deploying first, I do have a lot of options for how best to handle them.  GIVEN that no matter whether it be turn one or turn 3, it takes only two rounds to wreck those hulls, it may well be that patience will be my best friend.  If I go first, Haste will be.

 

The Wracks will pin them in with just enough room to disallow an effective break out and the big boys will deliver the hammer blow while the Talos march inexorably forward should I go first.

 

An Autarch would really help.  I thought about adding one but I am committed to doing a pure Coven for a bit to see how it goes.

[fluger]

Well, for one, you're ignoring the third gun on the Serpents, which is adding three more S6 AP5 shots to the mix. There's also the matter of the Avengers (or other units) inside, which will also add significantly to their firepower- and just as importantly, screen them from charges in many cases.

 

Fair enough, that's another .79 more wounds on grotesques from each gunship and another .666 HPs.  It's significant, but doesn't change a whole bunch overall.

 

As you state, the real kicker is the REST of the Eldar list.  

 

LH, sure, you're not saying its a slam dunk, but completely disregarding wave serpents is also kinda silly.  

[Guest]

the formations stack.  So the -1 LD can be -3 in this list as well, if the units are close enough.  thats a back breaker for some things, especially for Daemons and their instability or whatever.

Daemons are a bad example. No Ld tests at range, only tests in melee if they lose. Daemons are probably the last army I'd want to face as DE. Nothing like getting stuck against an army that does what you do, but they do it better...I mean, DE have some counters, but I think the daemon army is very well suited for anti-DE. I suppose it depends on the build.

 

Astra Militarium, on the other hand, would suffer major issues against DE, especially with the above ld penalty.

[fluger]

the formations stack.  So the -1 LD can be -3 in this list as well, if the units are close enough.  thats a back breaker for some things, especially for Daemons and their instability or whatever.

Absolutely FALSE.

 

 

Freakish Spectacle: Enemy units within 12" of one or more models from this Detachment suffer a -1 penalty to their

 

Leadership value.

 

ONE OR MORE.  

 

Sorry, it's never better than -1 Ld.  

[Lord Hanaur]

Fair enough, that's another .79 more wounds on grotesques from each gunship and another .666 HPs.  It's significant, but doesn't change a whole bunch overall.

 

As you state, the real kicker is the REST of the Eldar list.  

 

LH, sure, you're not saying its a slam dunk, but completely disregarding wave serpents is also kinda silly.  

Wait...  Wait!  When did I DISREGARD them?  I told you what I plan with them on the table.  I did the opposite of disregard them.  I directly ADDRESSED what I would do.  =)

[Lord Hanaur]

Absolutely FALSE.

 

 

ONE OR MORE.  

 

Sorry, it's never better than -1 Ld.  

 

It is though.

 

One or models from this FORMATION to be exact.  So each formation with that ability penalizes you by one.  So no.  Not false.

[fluger]

 

 

I wouldnt put Wave Serpents on that list.  Flat out wouldn't.  Not enough time for them to do anything.  IN round 2, I will probably crush two of their hulls, and shoot a third to death.  Sure it could happen with Serpents I spose but the force is ultra fast and isn't going to give them that kind of time. 

 

You're saying that they won't do anything.  Seems unlikely, though, in re-reading it, it appears that you are saying that the wave serpents won't do anything to the Claw formation.  Fair enough, I agree with that.  

[Lord Hanaur]

You're saying that they won't do anything.  Seems unlikely, though, in re-reading it, it appears that you are saying that the wave serpents won't do anything to the Claw formation.  Fair enough, I agree with that.  

Yes.  the Talos.  Exactly.  the context was the Talos.

[pretre]

It is though.

 

One or models from this FORMATION to be exact. So each formation with that ability penalizes you by one. So no. Not false.

Hmm. I think this would be frowned upon by most. If I proposed it, cheesy and Waac would already have been thrown out. :)