AbusePuppy Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 I often (but not always) prefer the Heavy Bolter on Chimeras- many times you'll be able to to just sit still and throw a ton of shots downrange, whereas the Heavy Flamer typically only gets to shoot once a game at best. On Russes and artillery tanks, though, it's a different matter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 I often (but not always) prefer the Heavy Bolter on Chimeras- many times you'll be able to to just sit still and throw a ton of shots downrange, whereas the Heavy Flamer typically only gets to shoot once a game at best. On Russes and artillery tanks, though, it's a different matter. Huh..maybe I'm unique in this regard. I think it's because I often use my SM scouts to outflank (or just assault) and destroy those tanks. Heavy flamer is an amazing solution to SM scouts. The heavy bolter is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 I don't really feel like I need special solutions to guys with 4+ saves, mostly. Between Russes, Wyverns, Chimeras, blob squads, and more, IG has plenty of effective anti-infantry tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 I don't really feel like I need special solutions to guys with 4+ saves, mostly. Between Russes, Wyverns, Chimeras, blob squads, and more, IG has plenty of effective anti-infantry tools. It isn't the 4+ saves, it's the 2+ cover saves which happen to be located on models with 4+ or 5+ armor. Decent weapons for AV 10 skimmers, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted December 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Well he took a balance. He had three (please correct me Kingpin if Im wrong) with Heavy Flamers, nine without. So he was prepared for close assaults but not over committed. I think it was probably a good way to go for him, given how much shooting he had inside the Chimeras. His squads all had the usual compliment of heavy hitting special weapons. Kingpin is a very good General. He doesn't make many mistakes, so I think it's safe to say that he played his hand as well as he could with the hand he dealt himself, as did I. He had a great list for stranding me in my own backfield, which would have been very bad and he had the initiative. I responded intelligently by placing myself at 43" from the closest Chimera. I felt we gave each other a good match tactically from the word go. =) No game is perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 It isn't the 4+ saves, it's the 2+ cover saves which happen to be located on models with 4+ or 5+ armor. Decent weapons for AV 10 skimmers, too. You would only have a 2+ if you were Going to Ground or were somehow standing inside a ruin that I helpfully Fortified for you. Not terribly likely on the latter and if the former I have another turn where I can ignore them because I know they can't assault me or do anything else inconvenient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted December 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 well maybe. To be fair, a unit that is gone to ground can still be a critically important target, charge or no charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 it can, but the example was specifically a unit coming off a board edge t assault the following turn, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted December 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 so now that the list has been tested a bit, and adjusted a bit, I'll re-post it here and see if anyone has any new thoughts on it. I havent yet been able to make good use of Flesh Gauntlets on the Wracks. Wondering if I should arm the Acothysts or not? Also I like the AP on the Agonizer. It's not cheap though. Seems necessary... Torn on that one also. Grotesquerie (Freakish Spectacles) 140pts Urien Rakarth 225pts 5 Grotesques (Aberration W/Agonizer, Liquifier Gun) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) 190pts 4 Grotesques (Aberration W/Agonizer, Liquifier Gun) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) Corpsethief Claw Detachment (Freakish Spectacle, and Scout Special Rules) 650pts 5 Talos (Feel No Pain, TL Haywire Blaster) Covenite FleshCorps (Freakish Spectacle, Master of Flesh) 85pts Haemonculus (Liquifier, Scissorhand, Syndriq's Sump, The Khaidesi Haemovores, The Panacea Perverted) 120pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Flesh Gauntlet and Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) 120pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Flesh Gauntlet and Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) 120pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Flesh Gauntlet and Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) 2000 Points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 You would only have a 2+ if you were Going to Ground or were somehow standing inside a ruin that I helpfully Fortified for you. Not terribly likely on the latter and if the former I have another turn where I can ignore them because I know they can't assault me or do anything else inconvenient. I can do it, but it isn't really the point. Models arriving from outflank with 3+ cover saves are still pretty annoying for mechanized artillery. Especially given the astra AV10 side armor standard for astra millitarium. Got move through cover on scouts, so we do get into terrain pretty easy. Then it's bolters and a krak grenade into your side, which is often enough to destroy or impair an AS light tank. A combi-melta or plasma pistol sarge would also be impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 so now that the list has been tested a bit, and adjusted a bit, I'll re-post it here and see if anyone has any new thoughts on it. I havent yet been able to make good use of Flesh Gauntlets on the Wracks. Wondering if I should arm the Acothysts or not? Also I like the AP on the Agonizer. It's not cheap though. Seems necessary... Torn on that one also. Grotesquerie (Freakish Spectacles) 140pts Urien Rakarth 225pts 5 Grotesques (Aberration W/Agonizer, Liquifier Gun) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) 190pts 4 Grotesques (Aberration W/Agonizer, Liquifier Gun) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) Corpsethief Claw Detachment (Freakish Spectacle, and Scout Special Rules) 650pts 5 Talos (Feel No Pain, TL Haywire Blaster) Covenite FleshCorps (Freakish Spectacle, Master of Flesh) 85pts Haemonculus (Liquifier, Scissorhand, Syndriq's Sump, The Khaidesi Haemovores, The Panacea Perverted) 120pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Flesh Gauntlet and Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) 120pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Flesh Gauntlet and Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) 120pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Flesh Gauntlet and Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier) 60pts Raider (Aethersails) 2000 Points Are the talos basically the only unit which can damage high AV? I'm not totally DE fluent, but it looks over reliant on that one unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingpin Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 So are you ready for a real test of your list? I am off all week and my deamons just really want to hit the table. After Saturday would be best. Working on getting things ready for the team tourney. @Pax: You are correct the talos are the only way to hurt hi AV targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted December 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Are the talos basically the only unit which can damage high AV? I'm not totally DE fluent, but it looks over reliant on that one unit. if you mean AV 14, yes. The Talos would have to do it OR optionally, I would have to ignore the AV 14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted December 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 So are you ready for a real test of your list? I am off all week and my deamons just really want to hit the table. After Saturday would be best. Working on getting things ready for the team tourney. Kingpin, you're always a test for my lists. Unfortunately I dont think I have an answer to your Invisibility. No Coven list does. We also come insta-nerfed against Daemon FMC spam. No anti-air, no Ignores Cover Weaponry. So we're just sitting ducks against it unless we get a little lucky with poison, but then, Coven lists don't have much of that in the shooting phase either. In fact we don't really have much of a shooting phase. Lol. So I'm not really sure how I'd beat that list with a Coven list. I'd have to rely on your bad dice when Be'Lakor is casting which isn't a strategy. That's just hoping against hope basically. No amount of ferocity is going to help me when I'm forced to hit on 6's against maximum sized Khornedog mobs led by a Herald plus disallowed from using any of my flamers. Your Soul Grinders are AV 13 so there's that to use against the Talos. Maybe others can weigh in with how they would handle it. His list is two Khorne Heralds, 2 Max sized Khorne Dog Squads, 2 Pink Horror batteries, tiny Nurgling squad, Be'Lakor, 3 Soul Grinders... I think I hit most of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 I've heard tell that the DE answer for invisibility is reavers. Hammer of Wrath just auto hits and rending is super cool. Obviously not a solution for your list in particular, but an answer none-the-less for DE generally speaking. The Dark Eldar list I wish to run (mostly on Vassal because money lol!) Realspace Raiders Detachment Haemon: 85Scissorhands, Stinger Pistol 5 Warriors: 55 + 65BlasterVenom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Warriors: 55 + 65BlasterVenom: 2x Splinter Cannon 4 Grotesques: 160+60Abomination: ScissorhandsRaider: Enhanced Aethersails 6 Reavers: 1462 Heat Lances2 Cluster Caltrops 6 Reavers: 1462 Heat Lances2 Cluster Caltrops 5 Scourges: 1204x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 1204x Haywire Blasters Razorwing Jetfighter: 140Dark Lances Razorwing Jetfighter: 140Dark Lances Ravager: 1253x Dark Lances Ravager: 1253x Dark Lances Ravager: 1253x Dark Lances Scalpel Squadron5 Wracks: 65 + 65OssefactorVenom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Wracks: 65 + 65OssefactorVenom: 2x Splinter Cannon 1992 pts (still finagling last 8 pts) I feel would have adequate answers for parts of it. I'd try to focus on whatever units DIDN'T have invisibilty up and use my AT shooting to go after the soul grinders. Certainly not an auto-win for the DE, but that list is less of a challenge for this one IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 if you mean AV 14, yes. The Talos would have to do it OR optionally, I would have to ignore the AV 14. Who can hurt AV13? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 I've heard tell that the DE answer for invisibility is reavers. Hammer of Wrath just auto hits and rending is super cool. Was under the impression that auto-hitting can't hit targets which require snaps. Perhaps just flyers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted December 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Who can hurt AV13? The Talos can for sure, albeit not easily. However their Haywire blasters certainly can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted December 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 I've heard tell that the DE answer for invisibility is reavers. Hammer of Wrath just auto hits and rending is super cool. Obviously not a solution for your list in particular, but an answer none-the-less for DE generally speaking. The Dark Eldar list I wish to run (mostly on Vassal because money lol!) Realspace Raiders Detachment Haemon: 85 Scissorhands, Stinger Pistol 5 Warriors: 55 + 65 Blaster Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Warriors: 55 + 65 Blaster Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 4 Grotesques: 160+60 Abomination: Scissorhands Raider: Enhanced Aethersails 6 Reavers: 146 2 Heat Lances 2 Cluster Caltrops 6 Reavers: 146 2 Heat Lances 2 Cluster Caltrops 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters 5 Scourges: 120 4x Haywire Blasters Razorwing Jetfighter: 140 Dark Lances Razorwing Jetfighter: 140 Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Ravager: 125 3x Dark Lances Scalpel Squadron 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 5 Wracks: 65 + 65 Ossefactor Venom: 2x Splinter Cannon 1992 pts (still finagling last 8 pts) I feel would have adequate answers for parts of it. I'd try to focus on whatever units DIDN'T have invisibilty up and use my AT shooting to go after the soul grinders. Certainly not an auto-win for the DE, but that list is less of a challenge for this one IMO. Well this is a Coven list and thread so alternate lists wont work. Besides I think what he wants is to avenge his loss to this particular Coven force. The question is, is there even a point to such a match up? It seems unlikely that the Coven would have any answers to his list. One thing you said does spark my mind thinking. I know it seeeeeems obvious, but it is true that his list only makes one unit invisible at a time. So one could slam into the OTHER unit and then pray Be'Lakor craps out. Seems like a real long shot, but I mean it does happen. If the Grotesques get Rampage and Rage, they are doing a lot of attacks and at very high STR so it is quite conceivable that a combined charge could yield serious damage to a Khorne dog unit before the second one is able to engage. Between the Liquifiers and the assault, it seems likely that at least one unit could be whittled considerably. The second unit would crash into that though, and if not actually win in the charge, certainly break me down to combat ineffective and allow him to free himself on my round which is what he would want. So the question is: Whose expendable? You could jet the Wracks out there, let him glom onto them so that he doesnt lose his Pink Horrors, which would seriously slow his advance down and force Be'Lakor to favor one Khorn dog unit over the other. the further the dogs go the harder it is for Be'lakor to stay within range of both units. You'd just have to put considerable space between the Wracks attacking the Pink Horrors in the backfield and then the ones holding the line in your deployment area. But this level of planning already illustrates the difficulties involved in such a matchup. It seems he would lose his Pink Horrors in the end and a Khorne Dog unit, but ultimately i don't see how we prevail unless the Talos can knock out an entire Soul Grinder almost every round.... Tough sledding. No Psyker defense, no aerial defense, Invisibility, high AV... Perfect storm (pardon the pun). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 The Talos can for sure, albeit not easily. However their Haywire blasters certainly can. Beyond the talos who can hurt AV13? You said AV14 was only the talos too. The talos are all one big unit, which lacks rules to fire at multiple targets. Seems like a problem to have all your AT in one unit. Example, I bring a vengeance weapon battery with battle cannon. 85pts and one large blast pie plate. Sure, it's stuck targeting the nearest enemy unit, but it does pretty mean damage to any DE unit. The structure is AV14. You have a single unit that can shoot it with hopes of damaging it, and if they shoot it and destroy it, it does prevent them from charging that turn. This seems like a problem. Oh, on a side note, you only get extra VP from the talos unit for melee kills against non-vehicles. If you destroy my unit at range, no extra VP and if you destroy it in melee, but is a vehicle, no extra VP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted December 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Final score was 17-7, but thats good to note. Ill scope that out when I get home on the Talos thing. As for the anti-av14 in one basket: you're not wrong. the fortunate news is that whatever is inside is in no hurry to tangle with them. so if all im dealing with is a Multimelta and some Assault Cannon fire, I guess ill take it til i can kill it? AV 14 is a critical consideration in all armies. but how many of them do i normally need to kill AT a time? usually not that many. so while it will be slower going than in other lists, my real issues are anti-air, Psykers and did i mention anti-air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Final score was 17-7, but thats good to note. Ill scope that out when I get home on the Talos thing. As for the anti-av14 in one basket: you're not wrong. the fortunate news is that whatever is inside is in no hurry to tangle with them. so if all im dealing with is a Multimelta and some Assault Cannon fire, I guess ill take it til i can kill it? AV 14 is a critical consideration in all armies. but how many of them do i normally need to kill AT a time? usually not that many. Buildings are the most likely example of AV14. If your suggesting land raiders, if you get to fire the haywire prior to the contents disembarking and charging talos, that SM player has no idea how to field land raiders. Any, wasn't really suggesting land raiders because you can charge the contents if you destroy the vehicle. Doesn't really present a threat for that unit. You do get cover (or invulnerables) against haywire in this edition, so there is that, but really, the only reason a Land Raider should be in range is because the unit inside needs to get closer to those talos. For DE, the bigger and more likely threats are tanks which can keep at range and have high front armor, like preds or leman russes or hammer/rail heads. Even drop pods should present a particularly annoying opposition, especially if they take the deathwind launchers (glancing the pods to dead really sucks, especially when they are scoring, sometimes, in this edition). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Can you comment on why include liquifiers? I find them to be incredibly over priced for what they do. The S3 really detracts to me and only having the semblance of a chance at AP2/3 just doesn't really spark my imagination. You've spent 135 pts (by my count) on liquifiers and I think you could put those points into something else. I really like the idea of the ossefactor. Assault, long range, poison 2+ with AP2 is SEXY. As well, you could invest in a single Cronos to potentially bolster the Talos? Or another lone Talos? I dunno, I just don't like liquifier guns, sell me on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingpin Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 If you would rather I could play my Eldar. Or I could even do a SM/IG combo. I just have a week off and want to get a game in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Just a quick follow up on Liquifiers in regards to numbers. Vs Regular Terminators Flamer: 8.33% chance to wound per hit Liquifier: 12.93% chance to wound per hit Vs MEq Flamer: 16.65% chance to wound per hit Liquifier: 27.75% chance to wound per hit vs GEq Flamer: .666% chance to wound per hit Liquifier: 58.31% chance to wound per hit To put this in context, if a flamer hit 10 Terminators, you could expect about 1 to die most of the time. If a Liquifier hit 10 Terminators, you could expect about 1 to die most of the time. If a flamer hit 10 Marines, you could expect about 2 marines to die. If a Liquifier hit 10 marines, you could expect about 3 to die. If a Flamer hit 10 guardsmen or guardians, you could expect 7 Guardsmen/Guardians to die. If a liquifier hit 10 Guardsmen/Guardians you could expect about 6 to die. Essentially, for 10 pts over the cost of a flamer, you get basically a flamer. You get some random luck in certain situations that might help you out vs higher armor save units, but it's not reliable, and you completely give up any hope of even glancing any vehicles. Obviously this isn't a perfect 1 to 1 comparison because the units that can get liquifiers can't get flamers, but I just don't get the point of paying for them at all. Maybe when they wounded everything on 4s they were worth it, but for just random AP? Nah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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