Haemonculus Covens

[AbusePuppy]

Was under the impression that auto-hitting can't hit targets which require snaps. Perhaps just flyers?

 

Shooting attacks against an Invisible unit are made as Snap Shots, which have a special clause about automatic hits and whatnot. Close combat attacks, however, hit on 6s and have no such special clause- thus Hammer of Wrath, Stomp, and other effects that don't roll to hit will ignore Invisibility in melee.

[Lord Hanaur]

If your suggesting land raiders, if you get to fire the haywire prior to the contents disembarking and charging talos, that SM player has no idea how to field land raiders. ...but really, the only reason a Land Raider should be in range is because the unit inside needs to get closer to those talos.

 

Perhaps you're forgetting that I have Scout.

[Lord Hanaur]

Can you comment on why include liquifiers?  I find them to be incredibly over priced for what they do.  The S3 really detracts to me and only having the semblance of a chance at AP2/3 just doesn't really spark my imagination.  

 

You've spent 135 pts (by my count) on liquifiers and I think you could put those points into something else.  I really like the idea of the ossefactor.  Assault, long range, poison 2+ with AP2 is SEXY.  

 

As well, you could invest in a single Cronos to potentially bolster the Talos?  Or another lone Talos?  

 

I dunno, I just don't like liquifier guns, sell me on them.

The ossefactor really does look sexy, doesn't it?

 

So here's the reasoning.  The units are small and really meant to mostly function from inside the transport.  That matters because:

 

You are very unlikely to be firing them in round 1.  Movement is the rule in round 1.  So no shooting.

 

Round 2:  a lot of assaulting.  People seem to like throwing their nobody units in front of me to keep my somebody units from assaulting their vehicles.  Not a bad idea.  They try this against my normal Dark Eldar and other armies also.  Thing is, I need to clear just enough of a path to set up the multi charge or charge.  The flamers can and the Ossefactor cant.  I usually have to kill at least two and possibly three dudes to clear the way.  This is an IDEAL weapon for that.  I would not trust the Ossefactor to do this for me.  It isnt as if I entirely trust the Liquifier anymore either.  But then that's why there are multiples.  The one thing i cannot afford at any cost is to fail to get those charges off.  NOT getting them off subjectis me to a ton of firepower at short range and that is a big threat.

 

If I were playing a ranged game in the least with this Coven list, i think I'd probably be in your camp of thought.  The contingency that they will try to block me off is one I really do need to deal with.  The key villain is Eldar.  they will most definitely throw Avengers out there and back their tank up, i na heart beat.  Then the Battle focus and shoot, forming a picket.  Goooootta kill the picket fence.

 

So I am not so much going to sell you on the weapon and its value per se.  Just that it is the most functionally capable weapon for the job it needs to be good at:  clearing JUST enough of a path.  and you know?  Sometimes those things get lucky and some hot dice with them goes a long way.

[fluger]

So you see it as a solution for dealing with bubblewrap, fair enough.  Within the confines of a coven-only list I can see the point, I just think the points could be allocated otherwise to make it work better.  

[Lord Hanaur]

So you see it as a solution for dealing with bubblewrap, fair enough.  Within the confines of a coven-only list I can see the point, I just think the points could be allocated otherwise to make it work better.  

I'm all ears.  Tell me.

[fluger]

I meant outside of pure coven...

[Lord Hanaur]

well no one really answered my question o nthe melee armaments I chose.  I thought that would get more attention frankly.  I am kind of thinking I might be over investing there?

[Guest]

Perhaps you're forgetting that I have Scout.

Not even slightly. You have big blob of MCs that outflanks. I know your going to do this as you declare outflank in deployment. I also know you lack AT solutions for high AV other than via your 1 out flanking unit. So, my tanks will deploy in center-ish of my deployment, so as to deny your abiltiy to shoot them when you arrive. You have 24" of range and a 6" movement, so even on a blank table this is completely do-able with dawn of war deployment. Vanguard or hammer deployment can get tricky, but those can still be done with LOS blocking terrain.

 

See the thing is that by only having the one unit for heavy AT, if you outflank I don't need to defend the front if I'm a heavy armor force. If they deploy normally, then I defend the front, but not the sides. Not a very flexible army in that respect.

 

My suggestion? Add lances to raiders. They never need to fire them, but they force me to worry about fighting from the front while your true AT slips in on the sides. In the off chance I defeat or tarpit that unit, you'd then still have some heavy AT solutions. Raiders have a truly dirt cheap lance option.

 

Anyway, I'm not suggesting they're easy to destroy, just that the lists relies too much on the one unit to do everything.

 

I do agree that flyers are a large threat, but I'll admit that I see less flyers than AV13-14 (including buildings here).

[AbusePuppy]

Only being able to shoot or assault one thing with the Talos unit is kinda a huge limitation, yeah.

[fluger]

well no one really answered my question o nthe melee armaments I chose.  I thought that would get more attention frankly.  I am kind of thinking I might be over investing there?

 

I really like scissorhands instead of agonizers.  

[Lord Hanaur]

Not even slightly. You have big blob of MCs that outflanks. I know your going to do this as you declare outflank in deployment. I also know you lack AT solutions for high AV other than via your 1 out flanking unit. So, my tanks will deploy in center-ish of my deployment, so as to deny your abiltiy to shoot them when you arrive. You have 24" of range and a 6" movement, so even on a blank table this is completely do-able with dawn of war deployment. Vanguard or hammer deployment can get tricky, but those can still be done with LOS blocking terrain.

 

See the thing is that by only having the one unit for heavy AT, if you outflank I don't need to defend the front if I'm a heavy armor force. If they deploy normally, then I defend the front, but not the sides. Not a very flexible army in that respect.

 

My suggestion? Add lances to raiders. They never need to fire them, but they force me to worry about fighting from the front while your true AT slips in on the sides. In the off chance I defeat or tarpit that unit, you'd then still have some heavy AT solutions. Raiders have a truly dirt cheap lance option.

 

Anyway, I'm not suggesting they're easy to destroy, just that the lists relies too much on the one unit to do everything.

 

I do agree that flyers are a large threat, but I'll admit that I see less flyers than AV13-14 (including buildings here).

wait.  I think you're missing my thrust.  if i have Scout, the guy with the Land Raider cant stay away from me.  I am a 36 inch range in the first turn (6+6+24).  So unless hes going to put himself 37 inches away (which also makes the landraiders assault range ineffectivel and would allow me free shots anyways) or he just has to accept it, take it to the chest and hope for a 1 in there somewhere.

 

The outflank would be an option, but the scout MOVE kind of gives me the edge on the Raider.

 

The front you mention  is going to be overrun in turn 2.  The rear and side of my enemy is the least of their worries.  =)  In round 2 i will charge the rear armor of every tank i see.  if its AV 14 I use the Talos.

 

My point was, there wont BE that many of THOSE so even if my units are largely ineffective against AV 14, My thought was that the only time this will be bad is if they have too many of them that i cant charge the rear of.  Make sense?

[generalripphook]

You have so many answers for infantry, I would definitely add lances to the raiders. It adds just a little more AT threat and just an extra bit of strong shooting. 

[fluger]

Also, adding scissorhands to the grotesques gives yo another answer for AV13 walkers and Land Raiders.  

[AbusePuppy]

wait.  I think you're missing my thrust.  if i have Scout, the guy with the Land Raider cant stay away from me.  I am a 36 inch range in the first turn (6+6+24).  So unless hes going to put himself 37 inches away (which also makes the landraiders assault range ineffectivel and would allow me free shots anyways) or he just has to accept it, take it to the chest and hope for a 1 in there somewhere.

 

It wouldn't be hard for the Land Raider to get cover- pop Smoke, if nothing else. Even with just 5+ cover, much less something like a Power Field, you're looking at only stripping twp HP off the tank.

 

And a Land Raider isn't going to want to be far away from you- probably the opposite. They tend to be filled with things that want to get into assault, after all, and five Taloii are good, but hardly overwhelming, when it comes to assaults.

[fluger]

What would fit in a Land Raider that could tangle with 5 talos?  I'm not trolling, I'm serious.  

 

Even assuming it was a crusader with 7 TH/SS termies and a CM with hammer and shield eternal (which is a ridiculous unit!) how well would they fare against 5 taloii?  

 

They should lose about 3 wounds to the Talos before even getting to swing and then they'll do (assuming the CM tanked all the wounds) 6-7 wounds on the Talos, which would leave 3 of them.  That's like a pretty generous appraisal of what might happen IMO.

[Lord Hanaur]

You have so many answers for infantry, I would definitely add lances to the raiders. It adds just a little more AT threat and just an extra bit of strong shooting. 

hm...  if the Raiders survive round 2, then the Lances could be worth the 5 points.  If I change the melee weapons, that might work.

[Lord Hanaur]

It wouldn't be hard for the Land Raider to get cover- pop Smoke, if nothing else. Even with just 5+ cover, much less something like a Power Field, you're looking at only stripping twp HP off the tank.

 

And a Land Raider isn't going to want to be far away from you- probably the opposite. They tend to be filled with things that want to get into assault, after all, and five Taloii are good, but hardly overwhelming, when it comes to assaults.

yeah that's why i said the Raider wouldn't be that far away and my range wouldn't be an issue.  I think that multiple Land Raiders might be an issue.  Cant kill multiples as fast, though again, just allowing them to live and weathering their fire until something is brave enough to pop out is seemingly a good idea.  Kill what you can kill when you can kill it.

 

One other thing:  Smoke wont save you unless you go first.  So the smoke thing would really only be true then, but we know the Land Raider is going to move flat out turn one if its using smoke. Ill be deploying second in all likelihood and know where it is.  I can then decide if the scout move, normal deploy or outflank makes the most sense, yeah?

 

 

so i wasnt too worried about the smoke possibility.  and if it smokes and stays back, its wasted the smoke.  I think the Land Raider is in trouble no matter what it does.  Two of them?  Different story.

[AbusePuppy]

What would fit in a Land Raider that could tangle with 5 talos?  I'm not trolling, I'm serious.  

 

Even assuming it was a crusader with 7 TH/SS termies and a CM with hammer and shield eternal (which is a ridiculous unit!) how well would they fare against 5 taloii?  

 

7 TH/SS + Priest seems like a pretty reasonable unit to see fighting it, given that the cost is about even when you count in the Land Raider. The Talos swing first, and we'll assume all of them get to attack (although that's not a given, I think)- twenty attacks, fourteen hits, twelve wounds, 1-2 failed saves (presuming War Hymns succeeds.) The five Terminators swing back with fifteen attacks, eleven hits, eight wounds, six failed FNP, killing two Talos. Things are slightly worse for the TH/SS next turn due to no longer benefiting from Hatred/charging, but on the other hand Concussive will actually be relevant in other turns if the TH/SS ever fail to kill any of the Taloii.

[fluger]

Good call on the priest!  I still forget about Battle Bros working on vehicles in 7th sometimes.  Then again, a Ld7 test to pass war hymns isn't ideal, but you could say two priests and it wouldn't be a thing and the odds of it going off are pretty solid.  

[Guest]

wait.  I think you're missing my thrust.  if i have Scout, the guy with the Land Raider cant stay away from me.  I am a 36 inch range in the first turn (6+6+24).  So unless hes going to put himself 37 inches away (which also makes the landraiders assault range ineffectivel and would allow me free shots anyways) or he just has to accept it, take it to the chest and hope for a 1 in there somewhere.

 

The outflank would be an option, but the scout MOVE kind of gives me the edge on the Raider.

 

The front you mention  is going to be overrun in turn 2.  The rear and side of my enemy is the least of their worries.  =)  In round 2 i will charge the rear armor of every tank i see.  if its AV 14 I use the Talos.

 

My point was, there wont BE that many of THOSE so even if my units are largely ineffective against AV 14, My thought was that the only time this will be bad is if they have too many of them that i cant charge the rear of.  Make sense?

 

Wow. I did miss it. That is a much weaker plan. You deploy them on table, then scout, ensuring that I both know where you deploy and that I have a free turn to shoot them without fear of charge? You also grant me a free turn to wait for my flyers to arrive, without worry that your talos won't be on the table and they'll be stuck with nothing viable to shoot at.

 

Though the biggest issue remains that if you fire the haywire at the land raiders which you can't reach for a charge, it means you can't charge anything that turn. This means that as long as the land raider stays out of charge range, the talos cannot charge anything. My land raider is going to stay in cover and fire TL lascannons at you from a distant part of the battle field. If you want to waste a 650pt unit on him over several turns, be my guest.

 

Land raiders are, at most, 300pts each. Even if they occupy your assaults and shooting for half the game and then are destroyed effortlessly, completely worth it. Meanwhile, I've got an extra 350pts over the rest of your army.

 

What would fit in a Land Raider that could tangle with 5 talos?  I'm not trolling, I'm serious.  

 

Even assuming it was a crusader with 7 TH/SS termies and a CM with hammer and shield eternal (which is a ridiculous unit!) how well would they fare against 5 taloii?  

 

They should lose about 3 wounds to the Talos before even getting to swing and then they'll do (assuming the CM tanked all the wounds) 6-7 wounds on the Talos, which would leave 3 of them.  That's like a pretty generous appraisal of what might happen IMO.

Well, I'm with DA, so we have those DW Knights which would smash these things to bits. Mind you, only a turn with smite mode and we do have the same initaitive as the talos, so we might take some hits.

 

Still, I agree, most TDA units within a land raider won't be able to destroy this unit too easy. GK have the means, just via hammer hand and halbreds, but they also have the same initiative.

 

In any cast, the better plan with a unit like that on the table is to deploy the TDA unit behind the land raider, wait for them to destroy it and be unable to charge, then charge them.

 

There are also lots of unit combinations within the armies of the imperium which can smash such a unit, melee and range. 

 

Also, being "only" T7 means they are not immune to bolter fire, so while the odds are against us, even a scout unit can pop a wound on these things.

[fluger]

What are deathwing knights using to smash them to bits?  Don't they only have AP4 weapons?  

[Lord Hanaur]

It's...a weaker plan?

 

You said a lot here Paxmiles.  Let me slow you down a tick.  Let me explain the ESSENTIAL plan.

 

Going 1st (Going second, same plan, starting further back and out of range)

We rush the 5 Raiders forward, no shooting.  They literally cut off a ton of the enemy movement, bracketing them in so that even lateral movement is restricted to a very narrow canal. Then we hold our breathe as the might of the enemy force comes raining down on us.  We use Terrain to the extent we can to jink as few times as we can, but we understand that shooting is a waste of time.  In the end we CONCEDE the death of many Raiders, if the enemy is unwilling to fire at the Talos...

 

Let that last part sink in.  because there is no way they are going to kill both the Raiders and the Talos and even a modicum of shooting at the Talos drastically the chances of knocking the Raiders out with every passing attempt.  Decisions decisions...

 

In the meantime, the Talos have moved and run to the 27.5 theoretical mark and have formed a sort of second tier bracket should the enemy attempt a breakout with their fast skimmers instead of shooting (assuming they have any fast skimmers).

 

Now the Talos would, if there was a land Raider, have to NOT run and instead shoot the Land Raider, which one has assumed is positioned with its mean nasty unit, ready to rumble. So lets just say that i use my own Wracks and raiders to cut off its movement and either block its contents off or force them into the unenviable position of getting out on a side they don't want to (the side the Talos are coming towards); or just buckling up and tank shocking (and when you tank shock, you cant disembark)

 

Turn 2:

 

And now my force is in or out of raiders, point blank range to the enemy and the Liquifiers clear the body shielding so the Grotesques can swarm the vehicles/Monsters (assuming they have vehicles/Monsters or body shielding)  Slugfest ensues, surviving Raiders (if any) peel away to a safer distance and start focusing on objectives for later in the game.

 

This outline is as uncomplicated as i could make it.  It is fraught with perils:

 

"What if they seize"

"What if they blow every Raider on the first try"

"What if vehicle explosions and Heavy Flamers onto open topped vehicles mangles my wracks"

 

And so on...

 

There are answers to those questions, but that's what being a Warhammer General is:  Adapting after contact with the enemy takes your simple plan and takes a crap on it.  =)

 

Can I get an amen!?

 

Now I dont see how that Land Raider is going to have any time at all to think about those Talos.  but if they do:  good.  My Grotesques will continue their Rampage until the Land Raider changes its mind, dies, or both.

[AbusePuppy]

I often just choose to adapt to my enemy's plan and defeat it without problem. It's a lot more effective than the alternative, where everything doesn't automatically go your way, you're never slowed or immobilized by terrain, you always succeed every charge, and the enemy remains perfectly static and just lets you walk your units right up next to them.

[Guest]

stuff

Look, that plan you just said, yeah, same one I was picturing, except, then I (or someone else) adapt to it. Most armies can adapt to it. It isn't a horrible plan, just very simple and over reliant on one unit being amazing.

 

Here, classic example opponent, 5 Knight Errants (Thermal Cannon version) as a single Imperial Knight detachment. 1850pts. Your welcome to use that 2k list you posted before. Unless the opponent rolls horribly or lines up the knights so you can multi-charge multiple knights at once, I don't think you can win against such an opponent with that list.

 

These aren't even AV14. This is AV13/12/12. They've got a 4++ to one facing and a 36" S9 ap1 large blast. They are I:4 and have a D melee weapon.

 

Sorry to switch from LRs to knights, but LR tactics rely very much on terrain, which limits internet example discussions. My point isn't that LRs are amazing, it's that your list is overreliant on that one unit, which impairs the rest of your army because they can't cope with high AV like they need to be able to deal with. The Knight example is easy for my point, and drills it in via a 150pt smaller army.

 

On a side note, this was Evil Bryan's GC list.

 

It is a tough list, no question, but it becomes a much tougher list if you only have a single unit which can cope with AV 13 walkers, and even that single unit has no invulnerable saves and is stuck at I:4.

[Guest]

<somehow relied to a different thread, but the post ended up here....>