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Haemonculus Covens


Lord Hanaur

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Look, that plan you just said, yeah, same one I was picturing, except, then I (or someone else) adapt to it. Most armies can adapt to it. It isn't a horrible plan, just very simple and over reliant on one unit being amazing.

 

Here, classic example opponent, 5 Knight Errants (Thermal Cannon version) as a single Imperial Knight detachment. 1850pts. Your welcome to use that 2k list you posted before. Unless the opponent rolls horribly or lines up the knights so you can multi-charge multiple knights at once, I don't think you can win against such an opponent with that list.

 

These aren't even AV14. This is AV13/12/12. They've got a 4++ to one facing and a 36" S9 ap1 large blast. They are I:4 and have a D melee weapon.

 

Sorry to switch from LRs to knights, but LR tactics rely very much on terrain, which limits internet example discussions. My point isn't that LRs are amazing, it's that your list is overreliant on that one unit, which impairs the rest of your army because they can't cope with high AV like they need to be able to deal with. The Knight example is easy for my point, and drills it in via a 150pt smaller army.

 

On a side note, this was Evil Bryan's GC list.

 

It is a tough list, no question, but it becomes a much tougher list if you only have a single unit which can cope with AV 13 walkers, and even that single unit has no invulnerable saves and is stuck at I:4.

So you're saying that all they have to do, in order to overcome me standing right in front of them is "adapt to it".  Optionally you've offered that they could tailor their list and show up with 5 Knights?  So that is all they'd need do and then I'd be in deep waters?

 

Give me an example of adapting to this.

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5 knights example wasn't tailored but was the list that won the last tournament at GG.

I understood that.  I also understand that not every opponent will be that.  In any event, 5 Knights does require special consideration and I may well have to add lances as was suggested earlier, in order to shore myself up against the possibility. Scissorhands also

 

That is a rare army indeed, so rare that I've not seen one played.  I have no doubt someone here has one and that it won, but what Paxmiles is describing as a "bad plan" looks more to me like just a "bad matchup" when it comes to 5 Knights.  As the torunament you describe proved, you didnt have to be a Coven player to be proven inadequate to the task of handling cheddar.  Lol.  It's kinda like saying "Your plan is bad because Revenant Titan".

Every plan looks bad against it.  What I'm looking for is contructive help in seeing the adaption part of his comments.

 

So.  How would an army that isn't 5 Knights, that he actually plays, adapt?

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I can't give a non tailored list of mine because I'm between lists at the moment. My list at GG was horrible, too, though there is already a thread on why.

 

Knight list isn't tailored, nor is it an unreasonable opponent. If tailoring, I think the "battle cannon" knight variant wound be better against DE. I'd also add 125pts of fortifications to even the game. For DE, tangle wire around a quad Icarus would be about right.

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@Fluger:

 

DW knights have odd weapons. All models have concussive, initiative order melee weapons with "bane of the traitor" which increases AP by 1 against CSM.

 

Squad leader's melee weapon is S6 ap3 with the above rules and 3 base attacks.

 

Squad has s6 ap4, but they have a 1-per-game "smite mode" which makes them s10 ap2, but only for that turn. Same special rules as above

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I can't give a non tailored list of mine because I'm between lists at the moment. My list at GG was horrible, too, though there is already a thread on why.

 

Knight list isn't tailored, nor is it an unreasonable opponent. If tailoring, I think the "battle cannon" knight variant wound be better against DE. I'd also add 125pts of fortifications to even the game. For DE, tangle wire around a quad Icarus would be about right.

 

...xcept, then I (or someone else) adapt to it. Most armies can adapt to it. It isn't a horrible plan, just very simple and over reliant on one unit being amazing.

 

 

Just use the last one you posted and explain it to me.  I played an all melee Tau list and won 50% of the time and I was DARN happy with that number!  I know weird stuff can be pulled off even when it seems impossible.

 

So explain to me the adaption you are referring to that makes my plan a poor one.  You brought it up, as did Abusepuppy.  So lets get to the meat of it.  What's the adaption that would allow you to negate the plan?  I need to know if I am to make this list more solid.

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Ah, so they lose 3 of 8 on turn one, still do the same, and now they are S6 and AP4 (3 attacks at AP3).  They still get beat down spectacularly after blowing their S10 AP2 attacks.  Each S6 AP4 attack has a 3.69% chance of wounding, so the remaining 4 guys have 8 attacks and have about a 30% chance of doing ONE wound.  The 3 attacks from sarge man should net a single wound every 3 rounds of combat.  The 3 remaining talos are killing 1-2 termies a turn, so they'll probably last 3 or 4 more rounds of combat before dying while ekeing out maybe 2-3 more wounds on the Talos.  

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@LH: On the cell phone internet, so I can get a better list up for you then. I do think that the 5 knight list is a reasonable opponent these days.

Okay, at home.

 

Difficult to give a proper list, as it's been a while since I had a stable army. I do always mention AV14 on these boards because I like to spam it, not because it's overly common outside of my armies (1 AV14 enemy is pretty normal in any list, mine feature lots).

 

A while back (6th ed), example of the last semi-stable list I was bringing to GG league nights (from memory, PC fried since then):

 

2k

Exorcists (DA) Combined arms

HQ Sammy (Speeder)

HQ Libby (TDA, Lion's Roar, Power Field Generator, Force Axe, Warlord)

Non-slot HQ RW command squad (3)

Troops Scouts (5, cloaks, 4 snipers, flakk ML, combi-melta)

Troops Scouts (5, cloaks, 4 snipers, flakk ML, combi-melta)

Troops Tactical (10, Plasma gun, MM, Combi-plasma)

-Rhino

Troops Tactical (10, Plasma gun, MM, Combi-plasma)

-Rhino

Fast Attack RW Black Knights (3)

Fast Attack Darkshroud (AC)

Heavy Land Raider

Heavy Land Raider

 

Fortifications

Vengeance Weapon Batteries (2, both Quad Icarus)

 

Total: 1971pts

 

Before you say, yeah, the list has issues. Lots of issues. One of many reasons I've been working on a more stable new list for quite some time now. In the above, pretty sure I had a FSR instead of the vengeance batteries, but I'm not sure where the points were different. From memory, after all.

 

How it works:

 

Army functions around outlasting my opponents. As a player, I dislike wipes more than I desire winning...This attitude is changing, as is my list construction style. This is an old list. I'll also note that my armies focus on a toolbox of stratedgy, rather than a clear cut way of playing, this has pros and cons over more specialized lists.

 

Sammy skirts around the table edges. He's very difficult to destroy so long as I keep him out of assault and with his rear to the enemy. He's got TL AC and TL heavy bolters, so he actually does a great job harassing flyers, especially ones with bad rear armor (like hell drakes). His warlord trait sucks and he's not worth his points, but he functions in this list as a "cheap" land raider, drawing fire as if he had better weapons.

 

Land Raiders defend two points, often far apart. They often deploy empty, functioning as late game KP denial for scooping up damaged units. I seem to roll very well with LR lascannons (same cannot be said for my devastators...). Between these LRs, the two fortifications, and Sammy, I have 5 vehicles with front and side AV14 - I've found spamming AV14 to be very key to keeping Land Raiders viable. Against DE, barring hugely obstructing terrain, the LRs will be backfield units. Land raiders will be firing both Las at talos unit, with HB targeting transports.

 

RW command and Black knights are basically the same unit duplicated, they are just 6pts cheaper as a command squad, featuring slightly different optional upgrades. These guys are amazing, but don't hold up to fire. Depending on my opponent, they will either deploy behind the LR and inch up out of LOS, or outflank, as they have scout stock. This unit can reliably kill a talos at short range, though they won't stand up to any assaults. This unit will likely function as a shooty in your face unit (after inching with LRs), then jink (3+ skilled rider), then be a speed bump.

 

Tactical squads are going to sit in the LRs. They will wait for you to reach a turn away from assault, then disembark and bubble their LR (and fire plasma). This unit is most certainly not tailored for you, but they still might get lucky with rapid plasma.

 

Rhinos will deploy empty and in front of LRs to grant a turn 1 cover save for the LRs. Normally, they'd function for tactical mobility, but against your list, we need to ensure we destroy the talos before they attempt to be mobile.

 

Darkshroud and scouts deploy together, or all outflank. Units are very toolbox. In your case, probably deployed in ruins, with Darkshroud concealed. I may use scout redeployment to imply fire lanes which these will not use. I may also use the Darkshroud scout move to place it closer to one of the LRs, once I know your deployment better.

 

Libby deep strikes turn 1 or 2. I get to pick with DA terms, even characters. Bike units (Knights and RW command) have built in teleport homers, so the idea is to find out which LR your main force is going after, then deep strike to them. Libby isn't for psychic powers, he's our cheapest character option. His role is that power field generator, which grants my LR a 4++. He also is there because 6th required HQ warlord and sammy has a worthless fixed trait. As for the axe, that was poor planning and relates to the model use. Lion's roar is a 1-use plasma cannon, which probably won't see use on the drop, given I want him out of TLOS.

 

Quad Lascannons likely deploy near each LR. They work at full BS against your skimmers and intercept against outflankers, but must fire at the nearest target, so they have some limitations on practical function.

 

As for the list, can I win with this? I'm not sure. There are many reasons I stopped this army and it's lack of fire output was near the top. Top of the list was that I really don't have enough time in a game for this list to shine. 10 turns and a bigger table and I'd win against most opponents, as the list lasts. What it doesn't do, is win quickly. This matters against hordes, but it does reasonably well against deathstars. Again, designed for 6th...

 

EDIT: you were asking about the last posted list I used. It was this one: http://www.ordofanaticus.com/index.php?/topic/23295-gg-cup-last-minute-scramble/ List had so many problems it isn't worth debating if or how it could lose to your list. List was used because it was an effort to get a WYSIWYG list together after a few codex swaps and many unstable lists between the above and now.

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Ah, so they lose 3 of 8 on turn one, still do the same, and now they are S6 and AP4 (3 attacks at AP3).  They still get beat down spectacularly after blowing their S10 AP2 attacks.  Each S6 AP4 attack has a 3.69% chance of wounding, so the remaining 4 guys have 8 attacks and have about a 30% chance of doing ONE wound.  The 3 attacks from sarge man should net a single wound every 3 rounds of combat.  The 3 remaining talos are killing 1-2 termies a turn, so they'll probably last 3 or 4 more rounds of combat before dying while ekeing out maybe 2-3 more wounds on the Talos.  

Yeah, they do suffer on latter turns against 2+ or 3+ armor, especially against FNP opponents with high toughness. Current plan is to add a GK character to the mix to get them hammer hand, and with luck, sanctuary for 2++ inv.

 

On a side note, entire unit is WS 5, so both talos and terms hit on 4s. Not sure if this was in your math.

 

Entire unit has 5+ prescision stikes in melee too, so partially damaged talos are fully killed.

 

Anyway, reason they were brought up wasn't about what can SM unit can defeat that entire 650pt blob, but which ones could realistically damage it. My squad would be 5-man, without GK support. Goal would be to survive 1 round and die on the second, leaving the talos eligible to be shot up a few more times. A glorious charge, hopefully a complete kill on a talos or two, but not expecting my 235pt unit to destroy a 650pt unit. We'd do 235pts of damage to it, and hopefully expose it for another turn of shooting.

 

On the GK support option, plan was both the GK character, a chappy, and a full 10-man unit. Pretty similar unit costs. Yeah, can't fit in a transport. That would be the real tough one.

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Entire squad has storm shields, fluger.

 

@LH: On the cell phone internet, so I can get a better list up for you then. I do think that the 5 knight list is a reasonable opponent these days.

This isnt the thread to discuss the "reasonable" nature of a 5 Knight list so I'll put that issue off if you're amiable to do so.  Your Exorcist list is up.  Just use that as an example in the meantime.  The exercize here is the adaption thing you mention.

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I think the main thing people aren't talking into account is the fact many missons are maelstorm which doenst necessarily equate to killyness but speed and survival.

 

I mean I recently lost a game where I had 60% of my Guard Army left and he had a flesh hound and a chaos land raider alive each with a wound/hull point left.

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but what Paxmiles is describing as a "bad plan" looks more to me like just a "bad matchup" when it comes to 5 Knights.  As the torunament you describe proved, you didnt have to be a Coven player to be proven inadequate to the task of handling cheddar.  Lol.  It's kinda like saying "Your plan is bad because Revenant Titan".

The problem is it's not just that one army, it's a lot of armies. And you can't wiggle of of it by saying "pfft whatever I don't care about cheesy lists" because that's a defense you can apply to literally any list- any time we give you a problem you can't solve or a list that will wreck yours, you can just say "but that list is cheesy so it doesn't matter."

 

You can't outfight Knights or Daemons; you can't catch bikes or Serpents; you can't advance quickly enough on Tau; you have no AA to handle Tyranids or Space Wolves; your deathstar crumples to Thunderwolves, IG, or Orks; Necrons outfight and outshoot you; etc, etc, etc. Your entire plan is reliant on A, your Grotesques eating 2000pts worth of shooting/assault on turn 1 and not dying to it (really unlikely) and B, the opponent just sitting still and watching your Taloii move towards them while doing absolutely nothing about it. You go off about how "I will have moved X inches at that point," but guess what- your opponent gets a movement phase, too, and they're damn well gonna use it to get away from your ponderously-slow unit of five Monstrous Creatures.

 

I mean, heck, something as basic as movement blocking is gonna screw your army up good- what happens when someone drives a Rhino 1" in front of your unit of Taloii? You can't really move around it- you have to maintain coherency distance and stay 1" away from it. You can shoot/assault it and if you do, you'll be all but guaranteed to kill it- but that means the enemy has essentially forced your unit to stay stationary for a turn for 35pts. And they probably have another Rhino for next turn. Or, heck, what about a big blob of Guardsmen or Boyz? Even unsupported by any powerful combat characters/upgrades, that unit can easily delay you for a very long time and keep you from getting to really do anything to the important parts of their army. You can't really hope to win on objectives, because you don't have Objective Secured (meaning many armies can just steal stuff right out from under you.) You basically don't have a strategy other than "pray like crazy and hope the other person is a bad player."

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hmmm... Can't quote on the cell.

 

@LH: I posted an old list that does answer the call for an example. If talking about that "exorcists thread, it doesn't work because most of it is purely hypothetical, representing ideas I haven't really tried. I post it for feedback and to encourage myself to actually make lists, rather than just painting models.

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hmmm... Can't quote on the cell.

 

@LH: I posted an old list that does answer the call for an example. If talking about that "exorcists thread, it doesn't work because most of it is purely hypothetical, representing ideas I haven't really tried. I post it for feedback and to encourage myself to actually make lists, rather than just painting models.

 

If you don't mind hypothetical, the current Exorcists list is this one:

 

GK NFS

HQ - Stern

(Non-slot) HQ - Techmarine (Conversion Beamer)

Troops - Terminators (5, all dual Falchions)

Heavy - Dreadknight (Heavy Psycannon)

Heavy - Dreadknight (Heavy Psycannon)

 

Allied Exorcists (DA)

HQ - Interrogator Chaplain (TDA)

Elites - DW Knights (10, Relic)

Troops - Scouts (10, Sniper Rifles, Cloaks)

Heavy - Land Raider Redeemer (DW vehicle, MM)

 

That would be 1850pts. In this case, plan revolves around Stern with sanctuary making the chappy+10knight unit have 2++ saves (stern and chappy are 2+/3++ instead). They either deep strike or foot slog to meet your deathstar. Although smite is only for a turn, stern is does bring hammer hand too, so I can at least wound on 3s for later turns.

 

As for calls of cheese, you're bringing 3 formations, as I read it, so I think I've got the moral high ground here. Otherwise, I do think this one is cheesy (and debate-ably viable)

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If you don't mind hypothetical, the current Exorcists list is this one:

 

 

That would be 1850pts. In this case, plan revolves around Stern with sanctuary making the chappy+10knight unit have 2++ saves (stern and chappy are 2+/3++ instead). They either deep strike or foot slog to meet your deathstar. Although smite is only for a turn, stern is does bring hammer hand too, so I can at least wound on 3s for later turns.

 

As for calls of cheese, you're bringing 3 formations, as I read it, so I think I've got the moral high ground here. Otherwise, I do think this one is cheesy (and debate-ably viable)

I'm unaware of a need for morale high ground here.  The Coven Codex is like the Militarum Tempestus Codex.  It practically requires Formations and given how the army goes together, there's not a lot of point in doing otherwise (like the Militarum Codex, and like the Grey Knight codex now, if you're wanting to keep your old army intact and so on)) because there just isnt enough in the Coven codex to begin with. 

 

I assume you deploy the Conversion beamer, two DreadKnights, and land Raider.  Im guessing you mount up the Terminators.  Scouts are deployed in cover for maximum 3+ savage if needed.

 

So when I am in front of your army turn 1, they will shoot at my Raiders.  That is what every army will do to me.  so nothing new there, nothing that derails things.  Your Stern+Chappy+Knights will Im guessing hide behind the Rider like you said.

 

So I have that right?  Where are the DreadKnights going to be in relation to this?

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Well, Coven codex is not really a codex, it's just a book of dataslates. Most events don't allow more than 1 dataslate. The militarum codex is stand alone, and does not require use of dataslates at all. It meets the requirements for a combined arms detachment. I do think fielding an entire army of just dataslates is cheesy. That said, I think that hypothetical list of mine is pretty cheesy too.

I assume you deploy the Conversion beamer, two DreadKnights, and land Raider.  Im guessing you mount up the Terminators.  Scouts are deployed in cover for maximum 3+ savage if needed.

 

So when I am in front of your army turn 1, they will shoot at my Raiders.  That is what every army will do to me.  so nothing new there, nothing that derails things.  Your Stern+Chappy+Knights will Im guessing hide behind the Rider like you said.

 

So I have that right?  Where are the DreadKnights going to be in relation to this?

Wow, you want full visual for this example. Hmm...

 

Okay, simplicity. Dawn of war. 2 objectives, one in dead center of each deployment zone. Terrain is Rubble and barricades (referred to as "ruins"). For table terrain, table is divided into 6 2'x2' squares, with a 4 story ruin in each corner square, and a 1 story ruin in each center square. Terrain is roughly 8" apart from each other, laid out as a ruined city with parallel streets.

 

Mission is typical 3pts for each held objective and 1 pt for each secondary (slay warlord, linebreaker, and fist blood)

 

You deploy first and go first. For purposes of this "game," you may pick your warlord trait and any psychic powers your list would roll (or combat drugs). The possibility of me seizing is zero, though you should deploy as if it were possible (assuming this would affect your deployment)

 

Hold off on scout moves until after I "deploy"

 

Your deployment...

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Front AV12 is kinda huge over AV11. The Taurox has arguably a slightly superior armament, but the Chimera gets more shots (both from having two guns and from fire points/Lasgun Arrays), is tougher, and has superior fire arcs (turret mount vs. fixed).

Thought it sounded strange, but I discarded it before: Taurox can be assembled with the TL AC as a top turret. Part of the instruction book and pictured on the GW site here:

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Taurox (second picture) 99120105054_Taurox02.jpg

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Well, Coven codex is not really a codex, it's just a book of dataslates. Most events don't allow more than 1 dataslate. The militarum codex is stand alone, and does not require use of dataslates at all. It meets the requirements for a combined arms detachment. I do think fielding an entire army of just dataslates is cheesy. That said, I think that hypothetical list of mine is pretty cheesy too.

Wow, you want full visual for this example. Hmm...

 

Okay, simplicity. Dawn of war. 2 objectives, one in dead center of each deployment zone. Terrain is Rubble and barricades (referred to as "ruins"). For table terrain, table is divided into 6 2'x2' squares, with a 4 story ruin in each corner square, and a 1 story ruin in each center square. Terrain is roughly 8" apart from each other, laid out as a ruined city with parallel streets.

 

Mission is typical 3pts for each held objective and 1 pt for each secondary (slay warlord, linebreaker, and fist blood)

 

You deploy first and go first. For purposes of this "game," you may pick your warlord trait and any psychic powers your list would roll (or combat drugs). The possibility of me seizing is zero, though you should deploy as if it were possible (assuming this would affect your deployment)

 

Hold off on scout moves until after I "deploy"

 

Your deployment...

I'm essentially centered, but that takes up a lot of space when you really do the math.  5 Raiders, and Talos in the middle of it all.  Grotesques on the wings o they can collapse in or jet out.

 

Deploy.

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May I suggest Vassal?  

That suggestion makes too much sense for this forum.  Leave. LOL.

 

But seriously, dont over complicate this.  He and Abusepuppy say some adaption can be made by ANY army to this.  It doesn't take VASSAL to tell me what the adaption is.  I already know what I'm going to do.  so does my opponent (well...you would think, given that I've told him).

 

So it's just a matter of explaining his chess move after I put my raiders in front of him; or how he deploys to stop me.  That's pretty much it. 

 

I know what I would do, using armies I actually play and not some "Yes but Y could kill X" tailored thing.  I would null deploy and try to strand me in disparate corners and turn the place into a shooting gallery.  But all my lists are designed to do this kind of thing and it wouldn't just be against a Coven list that I'd do it to.  So that is sort of plan A for me.  It isn't for him or his list and he doesn't have the tools to do it anyways without deep striking.  He could deep strike and hide most of his army I think, but I have an advantage there also because I can sacrifice a turn to movement once he's there and voila, the Terminators are stranded and we're back to plan A only a lot less hospitable deployment for Paxmles at that point.  It does help him, given his survivability, in giving me less time to take him out but hes talking about a two objective game here.  Everything is expendable and secondaries would probably decide it.

 

So we could go round and round but the essential...essential...chess move here is that I am about 1" to 7" in front of him, depending on how he deployed and its his turn.  What can he and "any army" do to adapt and overcome, besides good dice which we can in no way account for and which is NOT a strategic consideration?

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@fluger: I should get that program at some point. I think LH needs a better visual that we can give with normal words.

I'm essentially centered, but that takes up a lot of space when you really do the math.  5 Raiders, and Talos in the middle of it all.  Grotesques on the wings o they can collapse in or jet out.

 

Deploy.

Before I do, who is the warlord and where are they presently? What did you get for a warlord trait? Which "experiments" did you take? Oh, and if you could keep me updated on your current power from pain level, that would be awesome.

 

For me, none of my psychic powers are randomly rolled. Warlord is the GK terminator justicar for the 5-man TDA unit. He "rolled" the #6 power for GK, which gives him a bonus power on the Daemonology (santic) table, for which I'll take "Vortex of Doom" cause I like that suicidal power...

 

Oh, I'm assuming no night fighting turn 1, though you could take that warlord trait to make it so.

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Oh, how are we handling the liquifier's AP? Any sort of averaging would probably nerf the weapon, but giving you always your pick will break it. May I propose we grant it AP equal to the turn number? That does mean you'd punch TDA turn 1 and 2, PA turn 3 and carapace on turn 4, though you'd not be denying any ap after that. Seems more than fair.

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