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More on the toxicrene


AgentP

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Had a great game against Chappy last night. This was the first outing of the toxicrene. He dropped in via tyranocyte turn 2, with lictor assisted guidance. Shooting did little against Chappy's all terminator grey knight army. As an aside, I'd never played grey knights. Turns out the baby bjorn guys can teleport across the board! After we took a break so I could clean out my pants, the game resumed. Then came combat. Although the big poisoned guy died, he took out a swathe of termies with him. I'll definitely be running him again. I'm hoping the escalation league will help me learn how best to use him. I'm looking forward to pitting him against a wraithknight or riptide.

 

Chappy deservedly won, but it was close, like all maelstrom missions tend to be. Once again, 7th ed maelstrom is the best game in town right now IMO. Thanks for a great game Chappy!

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Eh, it's got 4+ armor and infantry speed- those are some pretty major weaknesses. If it assaults into cover against a squad of Marines, they are hitting it on 3s and wounding on 4s with no armor saves using their Krak Grenades before it ever gets to swing.

 

It's not terrible, but it's not awesome, either.

Negative Nancy. Nice of you to drop by.

It was fun. Fun to play against, fun to see on the table, fun to play.

 

Fun.

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Eh, it's got 4+ armor and infantry speed- those are some pretty major weaknesses. If it assaults into cover against a squad of Marines, they are hitting it on 3s and wounding on 4s with no armor saves using their Krak Grenades before it ever gets to swing.

 

It's not terrible, but it's not awesome, either.

Free GW pdf says it has lash whips. I think those add 3 to initiative in this edition, so I think it's I4 assaulting through cover and I6 otherwise. Could be wrong. 

 

Defensively, it has shrouded, so it would have a 3+ cover save while screened by another unit or difficult terrain.

 

The shooting attack is nifty, too, as it can do decent damage to vehicles that have been damaged. Classic tyranids is being able to damage, but not destroy most vehicles with shooting attacks. Seems like a good fit.

 

On paper, looks pretty able to get to melee, and able to dish out enough damage to be scary once in melee. I agree the 4+ armor is lacking, but it's also got acid blood (whatever that does in this edition...).

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@Pax: Lash Whips don't do anything when Charging into Cover as I understand it. I'll have to dig some more, but every Nid player I know plays them as I1 after modifiers when Charging into Cover.

 

Overall, the Toxicrene isn't bad, but it's not great either, as AP said. It certainly doesn't bring much of anything that Nids couldn't do already by comboing Units. A Venom/Malanthrope and a Combat Tyrant or something working together will do basically the same job for the most part. It certainly looks cool, and it's probably fun to run, but it's not a game-changer for Nids the way the Tyrannocyte looks to be.

 

Honestly, I haven't really seen much hate for it. The Maleceptor is the one that's getting the hate (and I think that's actually justified). The Toxicrene, I'm usually seeing more of a "meh, it's alright."

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Overall, the Toxicrene isn't bad, but it's not great either, as AP said. It certainly doesn't bring much of anything that Nids couldn't do already by comboing Units. A Venom/Malanthrope and a Combat Tyrant or something working together will do basically the same job for the most part. It certainly looks cool, and it's probably fun to run, but it's not a game-changer for Nids the way the Tyrannocyte looks to be.

 

 

I've just learned that I can't pass judgment on a unit until I've played it personally a few times.  Some units just work for some people, and some don't.  I think unit viability is a lot more varied and subjective and player dependant than the internet recognizes.  I think there would be a lot more diversity in lists if people would just play for themselves, experiment, and reach their own conclusions about what works and what doesn't.  

 

Anyway, next up for me will be Sporocysts.  I have a very good feeling about these guys.

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That was kind of what I was going for. The Toxicrene is usable if it fits your style, but at the end of the day, it's just one more 6" Move Assault MC. If you're already using an Army where those work, it'll fit in just fine. If you're not, it won't open up any new options. That's why people aren't getting excited about it the same way that they are about the T-cytes. I don't understand anyone who's actually hating on it, tho.

 

Sporocysts are another I think has a ton of potential. Just being able to sit there with a great Cover Save and kick out Spore Mines all game to block up movement lanes and create more threat zones and generally be a nuisance, while also kicking out a non-negligible amount of firepower is pretty awesome. I think they might actually be really good with Venom Cannon in a Trapdoor Spider-type list, where you're not going to be jamming a whole bunch of gribblies up there to get pasted by bad scatters.

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Free GW pdf says it has lash whips. I think those add 3 to initiative in this edition, so I think it's I4 assaulting through cover and I6 otherwise. Could be wrong. 

 

Multiplicitive and additive modifiers are always applied before set values, so Lash Whips will do nothing. Whips are really nice when you don't have to touch cover (I6 puts it ahead of almost everything on the field), but they don't solve the typical Tyranid problem of assaulting into terrain.

 

 

The Toxicrene is usable if it fits your style, but at the end of the day, it's just one more 6" Move Assault MC. If you're already using an Army where those work, it'll fit in just fine. If you're not, it won't open up any new options. That's why people aren't getting excited about it the same way that they are about the T-cytes.

 

Pretty much exactly this. If you like it, sure, use it; it's not abjectly awful or anything. Personally, I prefer Huggafexes and HaruHaru, but if he's your bag of tea then that's super. I just oppose silly statements about a lot of the new Tyranid stuff about how they will be "game-changers" or "really work against the meta." They won't. They're more MCs that can't catch Wave Serpents, can't survive Bikes or Tau, and can't hurt a Knight. They might be super-fun for some players and if so that's great- I myself think that the Sporocyst and Mucolid are both pretty cool. But no one should need to feel like they have to justify their preferences on the basis of game functionality if they want to run something- just use the model if you want and effectiveness (or not) be damned.

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Multiplicitive and additive modifiers are always applied before set values, so Lash Whips will do nothing. Whips are really nice when you don't have to touch cover (I6 puts it ahead of almost everything on the field), but they don't solve the typical Tyranid problem of assaulting into terrain.

Hmmm..checking.

 

Must be thinking of last edition. I recall GW rulling that "old" force halbreds would strike at intiative 3 when subject to the old lash whips (which set them to base initative 1). Idea was that you applied the fixed value, then altered as if that was the base. You are correct, doesn't seem to be a thing anymore. Odd, I wouldn't have thought otherwise with strength or toughness, but I was mixed up with regards to initiative...

 

Okay, well, he's I6 most of the time, and I3 when charging through cover. Not bad for a non-character tyranid. Was thinking about the armor save bit more, perhaps this is in response to grav weapons. Does make him more durable against grav weapons to have a weaker armor. Tyranid psykers can add FNP, I think, too.

 

Honestly, the only thing missing is a special note allowing him to be taken 0-1 in a daemons of nurgle army...

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But no one should need to feel like they have to justify their preferences on the basis of game functionality if they want to run something- just use the model if you want and effectiveness (or not) be damned.

........

I have a newfound respect for you AP. I had never thought to see those words under your avatar.

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........

I have a newfound respect for you AP. I had never thought to see those words under your avatar.

 

I talk about competitive play a lot, but I realize it's not everyone's (or even most people's) thing. I have goofy, mediocre units that I like as well, so I can totally understand just wanting to run something for the sheer sake of liking it. I've loved Biovores and Piranhas for some time now and while they're both decent-to-good now, that certainly hasn't always been the case.

 

The flip side of this- and you'll have to excuse me, because I am a compulsive contrarian and have to disagree with people even when they agree with what I'm saying- is that I don't like it when people try to pretend units are good when they aren't. If you like the Maelefactor, or Incubi, or Hellhounds, or even Penitent Engines? More power to you if you run them. It's only when people try to argue that those kind of units are good that I get annoyed, and I feel like a lot of the time those attempts are because they feel they need to justify their decision to use them.

 

Competitive players and hobby players and fluff players and all the other types of people in this game each have something to teach the others. I love having some of the really talented painters around my area and that I meet at tournaments because they can give me ideas and advice on making my units look good; even if I know I might not achieve the same effects they do, it's still something to learn. I get tips on that aspect from them just as they can take advice on ways to improve their lists from competitive players; it's something that can be beneficial to both parties. I really dislike the perceived "divide" between different factions within the hobby because it's not only false, but also harmful to the game and everyone who wants to play it. Competitive players are no more "ruining" things by fielding powerful armies than hobby players are by buying expensive-but-useless models for conversions.

 

In short, folks is just folks. Let 'em do what they want and have a good time with the game.

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