The new magic rules....

[Threejacks]

From over at Dakka-

 

"The magic phase is nutty now. 4d6 winds of magic, dispeller gets the sum of the highest 2. There is no power pool cap. There's 4 ways you can use end times magic, including "... either player wants to use End Times magic". That is literally how it reads, not "with opponents permission", but rather "either wants to use". Interesting.

 

 

Loremaster = can reroll all the power dice on the lore you're a loremaster of, even on an irresistable.

 

If you know a single spell in a lore, you know all the spells in that lore, including signature. God, Brolocks and Sisters of thorn just got even better.

 

 

Casting is ... interesting. So you pick a wiz and a spell to cast. Then you roll a d6. This is the max # of dice you can throw on it, unless you have a special rule like Morathi's. I.e you roll a d6, and it comes up 2, you can only throw 2 dice on that. Your opponent is not so limited.

 

Broken Concentration is no longer a thing. It's flat out gone, though a roll on dice of 3 or less is still a failed cast.

 

You can cast multiple copies of the same spell so long as:

 

-- Casting cost is not 15 or greater

 

-- Its not an end times signature spell

 

-- Its not a boosted spell of a spell that you have previously cast in the turn already

 

-- the wizard casting the spell hasn't already failed to cast this spell this turn. (however he can cast other spells).

 

 

-- All level 3's and above automatically know their lore(s) signature end times spell ; signature end times (only!) spells are not dispellable. They are mostly nasty, some are a bit meh, though most are just flat out nasty.

 

-- All level 3's and above automatically know "summon arcane fulcrum" "

 

Perhaps an Ordo member with the book can confirm this?

 

It certainly looks interesting especially for an undead player like myself:) honestly though It seems like its going to add a lot more time to the magic phase along with a lot more luck and annoyance so im in the undecided camp about accepting it right now.

 

Also GW needs to put an amendment out on the 8th edition rules so we can all download these end times rules changes.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well so far these rules are not standard and only come into effect when playing with ET rules. Of course they say "If either player wants to use the rules." but it really should be "If both players agree to" like Storm Of Magic.

 

Honestly the magic rule in book 3 are just unbalance and broken. I really would never play them unless it is just a whacky fun game. And I mean Unbalanced, period.

[dkieft]

I would not go as far as "unbalanced period"... unless dwarfs were involved... But if both players were expecting the rules it would be quite balanced (assuming both players understood what was about to go down). You both beef up on casters and anti-magic and it is all well and good. If a player got blindsided with it however... F-that.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I would not go as far as "unbalanced period"... unless dwarfs were involved... But if both players were expecting the rules it would be quite balanced (assuming both players understood what was about to go down). You both beef up on casters and anti-magic and it is all well and good. If a player got blindsided with it however... F-that.

I guess what I meant is some races, High Elves comes to mind, will dominate this new rule when up against say O&G or Ogres. Their magic items and special characters are made for this.

 

Edit: Let me rethink that statement. One could spam lvl 1 night goblin shamans and just throughout Badmoon several times a round. You can stop it once or twice with a dispel scroll but it will go off. (I won't even get in to my Dark Elf lvl 1 Death Magic Purple Sun spam idea. It is just wrong wrong wrong.)

 

Honestly the more I think of it I can come up with an endless amount of dirty combos involving spammed lvl 1s and a lvl 4 for the real punch.

 

But yes if both players walked into it knowing what was going to happen then yes like the Storm of Magic it could be fun. But with GW saying all it takes is for one player to say he wants to use those rules when he shows up?...... A really Big F-That!!! Unless it was specificaly stated before hand that this was going to happen I would refuse to play the person. If I didn't then Gamers would bring these list to every game turning the standard game into this magic mess all the time. The game would devolve into a nightmare for most players and we would loose players left and right.

[Talapas]

Remember that on average you are only getting 3-4 dice per cast so you may not get as many spells off as you think you will.

[Kremmet]

Yeah, spamming Purple Sun with level one's is not the best plan.

 

Now spamming Vindictive Glare with a lvl 4 NGobbo is pretty gross, but it's still a magic missile so MR becomes much more useful. The real problem hits with stuff like Slaanesh wizards just spamming Acquiescence. It's a low cast and likely only needs two dice with a Lord level which ends in some super spam of your army does nothing let alone how completely busted the Slaanesh End Times spell is.

 

The magic system itself isn't unusable, but it definitely is not a balanced ruleset to out there with how magic is now.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Remember that on average you are only getting 3-4 dice per cast so you may not get as many spells off as you think you will.

Do you mean dice from winds of magic? You will have on average 14 dice to use for a magic phase and that is not including the bonuses from Magic Mushrooms, extra dice from causing wounds (Death Magic) or the many other ways.

 

Just from the Night Gobbo example I could easily use on average 18 dice per magic phase which would be 4 spells with two using 4 dice and two using 5 dice. When you look at it that way you are only stopping one of those spells with dispel dice and the others you have to pray for a failed cast or a dispel scroll.

 

Compared to now your opponent will not have Every Spell they want and you can save your dispel dice to stop that Monster Spell that will delete a unit. With End Times Magic it doesn't matter if they stop that one spell once, you can just cast it again and again. All Mages then become way under priced and taking anything but Mages for your Hero or Lord choice becomes silly. You literally can win the game through magic alone and despite current complaints you can not do that now.

 

So if this rule becomes the norm expect an extreme hike in you power gaming.

 

Magic is really that powerful in End Times.

 

And honestly I am willing to try out my theory against a Normal list today. Three lvl 1s one lvl 4 in nothing but Dark Riders, one min unit of Warlocks and basic infantry. None of the crazy CoB, Witches, CoKs or Death Lords on Peg.

[Iraf]

When you cast a spell you first roll a D6 and that's how many dice you can use to cast the spell. So there is no guarantee on getting 5-6 dice to cast the big spells. I believe that is what Talapas is getting at.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

When you cast a spell you first roll a D6 and that's how many dice you can use to cast the spell. So there is no guarantee on getting 5-6 dice to cast the big spells. I believe that is what Talapas is getting at.

Man I need to see the main copy then.

 

Let me go back and read the leak one more time on the use of dice but three to four dice a spell is still pretty good.

[Iraf]

3 or 4 dice is great for the regular spells, yet its not going to allow you to get bad moon (or any of the big spells) reliably. Great for cheap magic missile or direct damage spam though.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

3 or 4 dice is great for the regular spells, yet its not going to allow you to get bad moon (or any of the big spells) reliably. Great for cheap magic missile or direct damage spam though.

Yep, see that now. Doom Bolt would be more the target spell to spam while you wait for the 6 to come up to throw the big spell.

 

Still several hero level casters and one Lord level seems to be the key with units that can use power dice too.

[wisetiger7]

"The magic phase is nutty now. 4d6 winds of magic, dispeller gets the sum of the highest 2. There is no power pool cap. There's 4 ways you can use end times magic, including "... either player wants to use End Times magic". That is literally how it reads, not "with opponents permission", but rather "either wants to use". Interesting. I don't see anywhere that says the dispeller gets the sum of the highest 2. AFAIK they still only get the highest 1d6.

 

You can cast multiple copies of the same spell so long as:

-- Casting cost is not 15 or greater

-- Its not an end times signature spell

-- Its not a boosted spell of a spell that you have previously cast in the turn already There is nothing about boosted spells...

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind trying the rules out. The fact that you have to roll a d6 before you attempt a spell could very well balance the 4d6/no loss of concentration. I think it would get more difficult to cast spells, now that you have to depend on the d6 roll AND the actual casting attempt roll to have a spell go off. This also may make the cheaper/less used spells usable again, since everyone is (old) loremaster.

 

I also don't think High Elves will get THAT much better. Sure Loremaster of Hoeth is good. Teclis is good too (both get 56 spells, woo!). Book of Hoeth is the only army specific Arcane item, which can give a significant edge. But they've always had it. But short of Avatar Alarielle, no one in the High Elf army has the Loremaster special rule (which I still think is stupid as f*** - LOREMASTER of Hoeth doesn't have the Loremaster special rule, nor does Teclis, who is the High LOREMASTER). Rerolling all casting dice can be huge, to which High Elves are greatly outclassed by those armies where the Loremaster rule is available.

 

It also says that spells can be used any number of times in each Magic phase, as long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful. It does not specify per wizard. That means for you MM spammers, if one of your L1s failed to cast the spell, all the rest of your L1s can't cast it again. So it will hinder you a bit if you are banking on spamming Doom Bolt, say. If you fail with one wizard, there goes that strategy.

 

PS. This is all speculation, according to the image posted up so far across various sites (as seen below). I don't know if I'm missing a pertinent page that might change my understanding of the new rules.

 

[Raindog]

Remember these are not 9th Ed rules (yet), they are campaign rules and should be considered in the same light as playing Storm of Chaos or Apocalypse for 40K. They are meant for playing with friends and under a mutual agreement. 

[Murphy'sLawyer]

It also says that spells can be used any number of times in each Magic phase, as long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful. It does not specify per wizard. That means for you MM spammers, if one of your L1s failed to cast the spell, all the rest of your L1s can't cast it again. So it will hinder you a bit if you are banking on spamming Doom Bolt, say. If you fail with one wizard, there goes that strategy.

Good catch on that wording and I believe you got it right. It appears that if you fail one attempt that spell can't be used by Any other Mage. That would prevent some of the Lvl 1 spamming for spells that require a 9+ to cast but it also says "fail to cast" so if it is dispelled it can be attempted again.

 

I hope my copy does show up to where I ordered it but if they get shorted their books I may not get my physical copy. When the Rampage is over I want to test these rules out with someone, maybe Mexicanija will be available, so I can see where these rules sit. But yes these will have to be tested out.

 

I also have been told I am being a bit negative about the ET magic rules so I will hold my opinion of them till I see them in action. Might make for some fun side games. But I won't replace the current rules for these for regular games unless my opinion can be swayed.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Remember these are not 9th Ed rules (yet), they are campaign rules and should be considered in the same light as playing Storm of Chaos or Apocalypse for 40K. They are meant for playing with friends and under a mutual agreement. 

If I can convince MN to play this with me you want to see how it runs? For a fun game of course.

[Threejacks]

With the random d6`s for casting and dispel dice allotment I can see many magic items that allow one to add dice to the cast being a lot more important.

 

Actually that brings up a question ive been meaning to ask and that is how does sequencing work for items that allow a player to add dice to a cast?..do they need to announce the use of the item before the d6`s are rolled?.How has it worked in the past,,do players need to announce the use of such an item before the opponent chooses dispel dice?

 

And as far as spell spam I can invision massive summoning of chaff along with at least one new caster character each turn to caddy in magic items like those mentioned above(no more than one each per game of course) caster summoning is basically a 10+ so a lvl 4 could easily spam that out.All this using Nagash...wow,just wow.

[ClassicFlava]

Murphys: you decide which spell you are casting before you roll the d6 so can't just wait for a high roll to cast the big spell.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Murphys: you decide which spell you are casting before you roll the d6 so can't just wait for a high roll to cast the big spell.

Wow, they really did put a big twist on it. This really makes me wonder on how this will work out then.

 

If anyone has the book can you tell me if Mages are limited to casting a number of spells equal to their LVL or is it till all the dice pool is gone?

 

If this is the case then I may have it backwards, we may see less Purple Sun and more of the lower casting cost spells. I really need to get my hands on a copy today. (Looking at the iBook version and thinking I can sell the Hard Cover online if it comes in.)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Rcnjack, I am downloading the book onto my iPad now. Looking at what is happening I don't think my Hard Cover is going to show up to the LGS. If it does I can just sell it to get my money back.

 

Will go over the actual book tonight.

[Threejacks]

Rcnjack, I am downloading the book onto my iPad now. Looking at wat is happening I don't think my Hard Cover is going to show up to the LGS. If it does I can just sell it to get my money back.

 

Will go over the actual book tonight.

Woah..are these available for Android now?..I still need Glotkin too!

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Woah..are these available for Android now?..I still need Glotkin too!

I am downloading mine from iBooks but the Black Library should have eBooks available.

[Kremmet]

Nothing stops you from spamming a spell unless you fail or it's a 15+ cast. Like I said before, spamming lvl 1's for Purple Sun isn't a good idea. Spamming Fire or one of the better army lores is what breaks this system.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Alright I have the book in front of me.

 

So yes you roll 4D6 and the highest is the Dispel Pool.

 

Yes a Wizard rolls a D6 to see what the maximum number of dice he can use to cast a spell but so to must the dispel dice. So the Dispel dice are limited to a D6 for each spell.

 

A Wizard is not limited to the number of times he can cast as long as there are dice left in the dice pool. (So a lvl 1 can cast as many times as a lvl 4, just not as well.)

 

Loremasters now can re-roll all his casting dice for a spell of his chosen lore, even if it was a miscast with irresistible force.

 

Still more in here but I want to read for a bit, but if you have questions ask away.

 

(So happy. )

[MexicanNinja]

I won't play a game using the new magic rules. I have zero desire to play magic hammer. I'll welcome end times armies as long as my opponent doesn't expect to use the magic rules.

[AgentP]

The whole magic thing is bonkers, just utter nonsense.  (Yet oddly, the UK forums seem to like it)  In any event, I'll be over to the side here playing 7th ed 40k Maelstrom missions.