The new magic rules....

[Krieger]

 

@Krieger. What was it that you liked and didn't like? Was it a one sided battle or did both players get a chance to have good magic phases.

 

Likes

1. love how they toned down the 15+ and higher casting value spells. A perfect example is fiery convo. Even with a level 4 I feel like I need at least 5 dice to have a reliable chance of getting the spell off. I would often roll 6 to force it through. Now I have to roll a d6 and hope for at least a 5. Further more no matter what I roll on the d6 I have to attempt the spell. If I fail to cast that spell it's done for the phase.

 

WE ONLY HAD ONE 15+ SPELL GO OFF THE WHOLE GAME.

 

2. It allows you to cast lots of low cost spells which is way more fun. It feels more eventful and fat paced. Without being too powerful. All those spells you hardly use are now useful and fun to use.

 

3.You can still have a great phase and a bad phase. One turn I rolled a 1, 1, 2, and 3. I don't think I got off any spells.

my opponent had 17 dice phase and through the d6 rule for casting and dispelling he got 0 spells off.

 

4.This adds an awesome new layer of strategy to the game. At one point my strategy was maxing my lore attribute to bump my units ward save. I made the mistake of casting an upgraded version of soul quench which made it so I couldn't cast the base lvl the rest of the phase.

 

5. More miscasting. With all these casting attempts the odds of miscast increase quite a bit.

 

Dislikes

 

1. The only thing I don't like is that it takes longer to play. However I would argue that is more a result of it being new. I think once you get the rules down it won't lengthen the game so much that it's unmanageable.

[valourunbound]

Follow up question(s): did you and your opponent make a list with the new magic rules in mind? Or did you just use your normal lists? Also, can you briefly describe the armies being used? Mostly interested in the characters.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Sounds like a High Elf army for Krieger and did you use the Book of Hoeth Kieger? (When ever I type Krieger's name I hear "Aww Piggly.")

[Krieger]

Follow up question(s): did you and your opponent make a list with the new magic rules in mind? Or did you just use your normal lists? Also, can you briefly describe the armies being used? Mostly interested in the characters.

Yes we mad our lists with the new rules in mind.

 

I had a lvl 4 high magic with book of hoeth and talisman of preservation. A lvl 1 lore of life with obsidian lodestone. A Sea Helm BSB with shield of the Merwyrm. Anointed of asurion on a pheonix.

 

* 27 swordmasters

* 27 white lions dragon banner

* 31 sea gaurd

* 2 units of 5 reavers

* 2 bolt throwers

 

 

I can't remember exactly what Talapas had. I beleive he had a nurgle daemon prince, lord on a 2 headed chaos dragon, a fire mage with the super channeling chaos item that can lower his LD. He also had 2 units of horrors. The rest of the army was a big block of warriors, skull cannon, flamers, and beasts of nurgle.

[Krieger]

Sounds like a High Elf army for Krieger and did you use the Book of Hoeth Kieger? (When ever I type Krieger's name I hear "Aww Piggly.")

 

Lol yes, I did bring my beloved book of hoeth.

[Peanut]

Of all the end times stuff, I'm most excited about this. I have never been a big fan of the big spells like dreaded 13th and dwellers, and I usually trade those spells in. It makes the game seem too dependent on dice rolls. I love the little spells though and am happy to see more little spells go off.

 

I think I am worried about all the weird gray areas that will pop up. Does a Slann with wandering deliberations have all spells?! Do Sisters of the Thorn have all Life and Beasts spells? I would hope no for both of those. Also, now my Shadowdancer, who can pay for one wizard level, can have all the Shadow spells?! Seems a little unbalancing for the game.

 

Just some thoughts. I'm more excited for this than not. Now the blended armies thing, I don't like that at all, but this seems pretty cool.

[Horde_o_SeaGuard]

At this 

 

Of all the end times stuff, I'm most excited about this. I have never been a big fan of the big spells like dreaded 13th and dwellers, and I usually trade those spells in. It makes the game seem too dependent on dice rolls. I love the little spells though and am happy to see more little spells go off.

 

I think I am worried about all the weird gray areas that will pop up. Does a Slann with wandering deliberations have all spells?! Do Sisters of the Thorn have all Life and Beasts spells? I would hope no for both of those. Also, now my Shadowdancer, who can pay for one wizard level, can have all the Shadow spells?! Seems a little unbalancing for the game.

 

Just some thoughts. I'm more excited for this than not. Now the blended armies thing, I don't like that at all, but this seems pretty cool.

At this point any caster that doesn't randomly generate spells knows all the spells for the lore that they have one spell in. So Sisters of the Thorn would know all Beasts and Life spells, Loremaster of Hoeth would know all the Battle Magic spells, etc. 

[Krieger]

Keep in mind low level lore masters will still have a hard time casting spells when you have to roll a d6 for dice allowance and a high likelihood of a lvl 4 trying to dispel.

[JMGraham]

Great to see some first hand accounts! Kreiger, your experience seems to mirror my hopes. I wonder, though, did the fact that the dispeller has to roll for the number of dice they can use to make a dispel attempt nerf dispelling too much? Wanting to stop a spell, having the dice to dispel it, but not rolling high enough on the number of dice you can use seems like it would be frustrating.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

At this 

 

 

At this point any caster that doesn't randomly generate spells knows all the spells for the lore that they have one spell in. So Sisters of the Thorn would know all Beasts and Life spells, Loremaster of Hoeth would know all the Battle Magic spells, etc.

 

Did this get discussed or is this your RAW interruption? Not saying you're wrong it's just that seems not right. The Warlocks being able to use all the Spells from Death and Dark Magic is just stupid, they are good enough and I would hate myself for using anything but their two spells.

 

Mind you I will look it over and see if there are some discussions going on but I would think only casters that randomly generate spells get Lore Master. Or else that opens a hole bag of BS, like if you have a ring with a bond spell can you use any spell from the spells Lore? Honesty talk it out with your opponent before using it that way, I can see bad RAW vs RAI arguments over that one.

[Talapas]

Did this get discussed or is this your RAW interruption? Not saying you're wrong it's just that seems not right. The Warlocks being able to use all the Spells from Death and Dark Magic is just stupid, they are good enough and I would hate myself for using anything but their two spells.

 

Mind you I will look it over and see if there are some discussions going on but I would think only casters that randomly generate spells get Lore Master. Or else that opens a hole bag of BS, like if you have a ring with a bond spell can you use any spell from the spells Lore? Honesty talk it out with your opponent before using it that way, I can see bad RAW vs RAI arguments over that one.

It is actually specifically addressed in the rules and they do indeed gain access to all spells of any lore they know.

[Talapas]

Bear in mind I was Kreigrrs opponent and I have a completely different veiw of the new rules. I will work on a batrep tonight.

[Horde_o_SeaGuard]

Did this get discussed or is this your RAW interruption? Not saying you're wrong it's just that seems not right. The Warlocks being able to use all the Spells from Death and Dark Magic is just stupid, they are good enough and I would hate myself for using anything but their two spells.

 

Mind you I will look it over and see if there are some discussions going on but I would think only casters that randomly generate spells get Lore Master. Or else that opens a hole bag of BS, like if you have a ring with a bond spell can you use any spell from the spells Lore? Honesty talk it out with your opponent before using it that way, I can see bad RAW vs RAI arguments over that one.

It is RAW in the book, it specifically cites the "loremaster of hoeth" as an example (if I remember correctly, I don't have the book in front of me at the moment), but as it is specifically talking about casters that do not generate random spells I am making an inference that other casters would work the same as the example. Note that this is different than the changes to the loremaster rule.

 

 

Keep in mind low level lore masters will still have a hard time casting spells when you have to roll a d6 for dice allowance and a high likelihood of a lvl 4 trying to dispel.

 

I think you are underestimating the power of the loremaster of hoeth with the book of hoeth, and the amazing toolkit of spells he has access to, as you said the new magic is effective phases when casting a bunch of small spells, your opponent wont have enough dice in most phases to deal with the amount of spells you have available.

[Krieger]

It is RAW in the book, it specifically cites the "loremaster of hoeth" as an example (if I remember correctly, I don't have the book in front of me at the moment), but as it is specifically talking about casters that do not generate random spells I am making an inference that other casters would work the same as the example. Note that this is different than the changes to the loremaster rule.

 

 

 

I think you are underestimating the power of the loremaster of hoeth with the book of hoeth, and the amazing toolkit of spells he has access to, as you said the new magic is effective phases when casting a bunch of small spells, your opponent wont have enough dice in most phases to deal with the amount of spells you have available.

 

I thought the same thing unitl I played a game.The d6 rule burns a lot of the casters dice. More often then not you wind up with plenty of dispel dice. It honestly felt more balanced then the old system.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I see what you guys are saying and can't argue with that. It's a down right stupid rule but you are right.

[Krieger]

The loremaster adds more tactical choice to the phase and the new caster from having an absolute hay day. It makes for a better game then I am gonna bate your dice with the first spell then I am going to use 5 to 6 dice with my number 6 spell every turn.

[Krieger]

*and keep the caster

[Murphy'sLawyer]

So one question came up tonight and I think I have it right. In the End Times book it say you can continue to cast a spell if you successfully cast that spell. When I read the BRB you Cast a spell if you roll a number equal to or higher than the casting value, then you opponent can attempt to dispel it or use a scroll.

 

From my reading of the rule if you cast a spell you can continue to cast it even if your opponent Dispells it. Anyone disagree here?

[Talapas]

That is up for debate. We played that you could, but some groups play that it doesn't allow you to continue if it gets dispelled. I thought it seemed to be pretty straightforward but apparently not.

[Drak]

ya that particular wording dilemma has been discussed at length in regards to the lore attribute for some of the Lores (specifically Vamps) which states 'immediately upon casting a spell....blah blah blah' and has in my experience been played that you haven't met the requirement if the spell was dispelled.

[Krieger]

After playing my second game. I without a doubt beleive that once it is dispelled it is done. Not because it's over powered. BECAUSE IT TAKE WAYYY TOOOOO LONG. There is no way they intent was for someone to roll a 5 to 8 + casting value spell 6 time in one phase.

[Krieger]

.

[Brother Glacius]

I see no reason to even have that rule if the intent was to stop recasts with dispels. The only reason to have it is because a spell was dispelled. It gives the casting player a chance to get off that one important spell.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I see no reason to even have that rule if the intent was to stop recasts with dispels. The only reason to have it is because a spell was dispelled. It gives the casting player a chance to get off that one important spell.

I will tell you that getting a spell to cast is much harder with the ET rules and getting that High Casting spell is most likely not going to happen. The Lower Casting spell start to become more important ironically.

[JMGraham]

Had my first End Times magic game last night, with my Wood Elves (Swedish Comp 10, Level 4 Shadow, Level 2 Beasts) vs Greyson's High Elves (Swedish Comp 12, Level 2 High, Level 2 Fire).

 

My biggest impression was that the magic phase was full of difficult decisions, where it never was in the past. Having my opponent roll 20 and 21 dice is successive magic phases (while I rolled 12 and 13) was terrifying, but the fear was unwarranted. The proper approach seems to be, as soon as you roll a high number for the number of power dice, throw that many in, as chances are the opponent won't be able to dispell it. It really shifts the power away from the large casting-value spells to those low-value ones. As expected.

 

Highlights of the magic phase included:

 

1) My MSU Wood Elf army weathering Fireball and Soulquench spam. I think if Greyson had played things differently, I would have been hosed.

 

2) Frost Phoenix walking between worlds after a couple of failed charges to threaten the hell out of my key units.

 

3) A unit of 5 wardancers charging a Frost Phoenix, and with the aid of Mindrazor, Wildform, and Enfeebling, taking it out in one turn of combat.

 

4) My Beast Mage transforming into a Mountain Chimera and eating a unit of 3 Dragon Princes (who would have died anyhow to the unit of Eternal Guard in it's flank, but still: Mountain Chimera!)

 

Game ended in what was likely a 20-0 victory for the Woodies, as the High Elves had only their general left (Anointed on a Flame Phoenix). Magic was more challenging to wrap one's head around, but didn't seem overpowered - just different. Fewer big spells, more little spells. Makes me feel good about the Glottkin's survivebility. 

 

Color me interested and wanting to try more, but not 100% sold.