Don't Panic Posted December 17, 2014 Report Share Posted December 17, 2014 since many other folks are messing around with this i decided to give it a shot. The first list is pretty strong for an 11.6 i think, but considering it lacks the lord and cannons i would presume it wouldnt be that annoying for someone to play and it does have some weak spots to it. i was kind of shocked that if you sub out a single OG from list plus the bomber(its bad, trust me) and replace with a unit of drakes it actually drops it to 14.9. from my experience, yes 2 organ guns have a lot of punch factor(and hate) but compared to a single organ gun and drakes... ive had a lot more success with the latter. mostly cause drakes are not as easy to kill or approach. any thoughts to make this in between that range? one option is to sub out the flame canon for a second organ gun in the second list... that gets around 13ish. First List: 11.6 on swedish Lords -Nada! Heroes -Runesmith, shield, rune of stone, rune of spellbreaking, rune of furnace(general) -Runesmith, shield, rune of stone, rune of spellbreaking -Thane, BSB, great weapon, rune of gromril, rune of ironx2 -dragon slayer -master engineer, pistol Core -32 longbeards, GW, ancestor rune, full command -10 Qs standard and shields Special -3 gyrocopters(holy heck does swedish hit these guys HARD, might bring it down to 2...) -30 slayers, full command, strollaz(swedish hits these guys the least hard out of the big 3 special blocks... im shocked cause i have had way more success with slayers than i did with hams/breakers) -grudge thrower Rare Organ Gun, Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Forging Organ Gun, Rune of Accuracy Flame Canon, Rune of Forging Gyrobomber Second List: 14.9 Lords -Nada! Heroes -Runesmith, shield, rune of stone, rune of spellbreaking, rune of furnace(general) -Runesmith, shield, rune of stone, rune of spellbreaking -Thane, BSB, great weapon, rune of gromril, rune of ironx2 -dragon slayer -master engineer, rune of stone Core -32 longbeards, GW, ancestor rune, full command -10 Qs standard and shields Special -3 gyrocopters -30 slayers, full command, strollaz -grudge thrower Rare 15 irondrakes, Full Command with Trollhammer Torpedo Organ Gun, Rune of Accuracy Flame Canon, Rune of Forging Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valourunbound Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 2 thoughts: 1. Trollhammer is a great name for a weapon. 2. I really think you need at least one cannon. I feel like you just don't have anything to deal with monsters that don't want to engage you. Example: a dragon lord. You won't get an ounce of those points without a cannon. Even if it never kills anything, it forces your opponent's hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted December 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 2 thoughts: 1. Trollhammer is a great name for a weapon. 2. I really think you need at least one cannon. I feel like you just don't have anything to deal with monsters that don't want to engage you. Example: a dragon lord. You won't get an ounce of those points without a cannon. Even if it never kills anything, it forces your opponent's hand. yea this is my first list without a canon and ive always been hesitant for that reason. really the main problem is a caster with long range magic on something flying more than anything(metal is best against me along with death purple stupidity). if my opponent leaves a non-caster lord on a dragon or just a monster in general out of the game and lets me fire on everything else... ill win easily so they really have to be a threat to me while hiding(like a daemon prince). my blocks are not easily dealt with either and i do have vanguard as well so i can press if i have to along with the 3 copters and bomber. also the stone thrower has better range than canons and can indirect so i do have some answer to long range, but their reliability compared to canons is laughable. oh and that trollhammer is great against those pansy monsters: S8 D3 24", also unreliable... another thing: i have two scrolls(dwarfs). you'll have to risk miscast if you want to get the bad ones off on me when you need them to go off... the more ive messed around with swedish, the more i love dwarfs with it. just bewildered that i can bring a bomber, 3 copters, 2 organ guns and a flame canon and have a 11.6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 I think the cannon is a good idea. I don't ever field organ guns as they don't seem cost effective once you put in the engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 Nice lists, I just finished making a dwarf list with a 14 score. I'll post it when I get home for you to see. With my limited experience playing swedish comp games it really matters on the final score of the list. If you took the 11.6 list to an event with a scale from 8 -16 I think it does superb. However, if you took that to a 10-16 event you are going to be starting most games behind in VP. Another thing to consider is events which use the masters FAQ. Specifaclly the rule for true LOS. Hills and builds block LOS and so wizards can't hide behind them and can't use LOS spells. Now, the same is true for the majority of war machines. However, on the turn the wizard does get some "blood lust" and comes over the hill, the war machines can go to town on him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 You don't need a cannon as you're running a Grudge Thrower, but getting accuracy on it is going to be important as the engi is better off helping the Organ Gun. I'd drop a copter at least as you really don't need three especially with the Vanguard in the list and I'd strongly suggest running Rune of Grugni over anything else on your BSB as you're otherwise easy pickings for small arms fire. As for the comp thoughts overall, remember that Swedish strives to punish tournament trends more than anything. There are plenty of over/under comped units that simply are seen too much/little and therefore get the rating they do. Copters are one of those things (although I personally think they comp way too high considering there isn't even a close alternative in dwarfs). As for Organ Guns not being worth their points, that's a pretty bold statement. Even without an engineer and just rocking Accuracy you're looking at an incredibly small footprint death machine. They are well worth every penny (and really the only reason to field a dwarf engineer). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 As a side note, there's a sweet chart someone did on bugman's comparing accuracy and penetrating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudra34 Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 As a side note, there's a sweet chart someone did on bugman's comparing accuracy and penetrating. Dear lord, I hope Bugman's isn't a sex website. I don't think the cannon is needed when you have the grudge-thrower. Both will get the job done, and the thrower can also devistate units of low-tough troops. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted December 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 yea ive just never had much luck with the stone thrower so i just have it go naked generally and keep it cheap. i use to bring accuracy for my first 6 months playing but it just rarely ever makes its points up while on the OG i just clean house. im not really a fan of grungi unless i do a gunline. ive played it quite a bit. i started winning a lot more when i dropped it. its super expensive for what it does and the bubble is too small to be covering things and when you do that you open yourself up to template destruction quite a bit. taking the 60+ point runes just never seems worth it to me anymore. cheap and more units has been the way to go. I think the important thing of organ guns is yes they are expensive, but they really mess with your opponent and ive definitely gotten the points with them if i get them to survive 2 rounds. your opponent has to either gamble with getting first turn and putting them in range or being conservative and dropping 6" back. which means a possibility of not getting into me for another turn and risking another round of shooting. of course if they have long range shooting/magic its a no brainer. copters are so versatile and having at least 3 has saved my butt so many times. 1-2 die usually in the first 2 turns. need them to redirect and against woodelves they are game changing in target saturation or your fast cav dies from bombs and steam gun your lines if you dont kill them... there's a reason they hit that 3rd copter really hard because thats the magic number for them being effective. but maybe i can get away with it with having a bomber since its only -3 and 1wmp vs -10 and 2wmp for a third copter. thanks guys. nice thoughts. may switch that accuracy over to the grudge thrower... actually saves points as well i think so that may be totally worth it. plus then i have something that can deal with BotWD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valourunbound Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 I apologize for my original cannon comment. I did not see the grudge thrower at all until you mentioned it. But again, the consensus is that un-runed cannons are more reliable than un-runed grudge throwers. Up to you and your preference now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romes Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 You don't need a cannon as you're running a Grudge Thrower, but getting accuracy on it is going to be important as the engi is better off helping the Organ Gun. I'd drop a copter at least as you really don't need three especially with the Vanguard in the list and I'd strongly suggest running Rune of Grugni over anything else on your BSB as you're otherwise easy pickings for small arms fire. As for the comp thoughts overall, remember that Swedish strives to punish tournament trends more than anything. There are plenty of over/under comped units that simply are seen too much/little and therefore get the rating they do. Copters are one of those things (although I personally think they comp way too high considering there isn't even a close alternative in dwarfs). As for Organ Guns not being worth their points, that's a pretty bold statement. Even without an engineer and just rocking Accuracy you're looking at an incredibly small footprint death machine. They are well worth every penny (and really the only reason to field a dwarf engineer). I read this an another comment about gyro's being overcomped and went and checked 1.15. Gyros are -3 -5 -7 without the steam gun. That's for a 90 point T5, 3 wound, flying, armored redirector in an army, where when you go the traditional artillery route, all you need to do is buy time. Gyro may be overcomped if you're working outside the normal competitive builds and not maximizing artillery firepower/comp. Within what the designers set of assumptions though, that dwarves mostly play artillery, they seem fairy comped to me. Otherwise - I like the list - getting to a 15 is nice and you're doing it by taking some potentially useful but less used choices. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted December 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 yea its really the steam gun thats the killer. the -2 and 2 wmp per steam gun adds up quite a bit. ranges from approx -6 to -10(14 is possible if its the third steam gun) in points just for a single steam gun alone. its just the brimstone gun is sooo bad in comparison(you will rarely hit anything), but heck you can still bomb and redirect as you stated... really interesting thought.. seriously switch just ONE over brings down the comp by 1.4!!! yeeea i think i may change at least one copter. nice idea! thanks a lot! also in the newest one the third copter is hit with -8 which i think is the only difference really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 The problem with copter comp is that dwarfs only have them for anything that's not MV3 infantry. Yes they are very powerful, but the comp from a purely competitive standpoint could be a little lower given that it's for something entirely irreplaceable due to army design. As for Grugni, I've never played dwarfs as a gunline (and I question those who do). It is an absolutely fantastic rune to get your troops up the field without suffering too much molestation especially when you're running Slayers. The 6" bubble is problematic for protecting guns to be sure, but it's just fine for those 3-4 units that dwarfs need to be combat ready (and likely the only units in the army at all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted December 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 brought a different list last night for 2400 testing two units in core out. swedish of 14.3. ill do the more logical combo next time lol. 23 greatbeards and 23 warriors with buckets. buckets died kind of like i feared they would. S3 is just so bad... greatbeards wrecked face. im going to mess around a bit with the build, but the 40 lb with gw may sadly be the way i just end up going. just such a nasty block i wanted to try something else out that my opponents would enjoy more. ill switch it over to the opposite build of 23 shieldbeards and 23 warriors with GW for next week. that build seems more balanced tbh. oh in the list had 2 2+as shield runesmiths, bsb with T6 W3 and 1+as, grudgethower, OG with accuracy, OG with penetration, engineer, FC with forging, 3 copters, 1 bomber and 30 slayers with 2 giant slayers vanguard. slayers won me the game again. went back to my ol' days of misfire shenanigans lol oh how i miss those days! blew up my forging flame canon first turn for the second consecutive game. one organ gun died and other lost its engineer. so it did a whopping 3 wounds or so hitting on 5s before it died. heck the bomber did more wounds than my artillery, ha. ML i think played quite well and had me on the ropes destroyed my bsb warrior unit with trolls and orcs. had 2 copters left i think and the bomber. bomber tied things up with wulf. got both charges off with longbeards and slayers which was crucial. really good game that came down to copter catching black orcs. purchased some more slayers. thinking of trying two units of slayers possibly now. they are just so fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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