Swedish Comp 14 Dwarf List

[MexicanNinja]

As I stated in one of my responses to the Rampage, I really enjoyed playing the Dwarfs and want to bring them out more often.  I have the infantry needed for the list, so most of the stuff is already finished.  Now, I just need to order some more bases so the new additions can match my army.

 

If I did my math correctly, this lists comes in at a 14 and is exactly 2,500 points (I haven't rechecked my math).  This list feels like it would be a solid match-up even outside the swedish comp system.  If used at a comp event, I would hope for match-up's against lists with a lower rating because it will strongly force them to come at me for the win.

 

Here's the list, let me know what you all think.

 

Thane w/great weapon, master rune of gromril 2 runes of iron

General with 1+ save, T6, W3

 

Thane w/battle standard, great weapon, master rune of grungi

He joins the ironbreakers and sits within 6" of the longbeards to give them the 5++

 

Runesmith w/great weapon, rune of stone, rune of spell breaking

He either joins the ironbreakers of the quarrellers.  It will all depend on the match up.  If I'm not concerned about needed AP for my ironbreakers then he'll join the quarreller's to give them some AP for their crossbows

 

Master Engineer

Sits within 3" of the organ gun

 

Master Engineer

Sits within 3" of the flame cannon

 

10 Quarrellers w/musician, standard bearer, shields, great weapons

Their placement is dependent on my opponents army and how I deploy my blocks and war machines.

 

40 Longbeards w/full command, rune of stoicism, great weapons

They do what longbeards do and scare my opponents.....well, every combat unit

 

28 Ironbreakers w/full command

Again, the BSB joins this unit for stubborn and they are the anvil for my army.

 

Cannon w/rune of forging

My obvious monster shooter

 

Gyrocopter

Does stuff

 

Gyrocopter

Does stuff

 

Grudge Thrower w/rune of accuracy, rune of forging

My primary "bunker buster".  It can also assist the cannon with targeting monsters.

 

Organ Gun w/rune of penetrating

With the engineer nearby, this thing will get the BS4, can re-roll an artillery die, and gets the +1 S....yeah, I'm looking at all you knight units out there!

 

Flame Cannon

Again, with the engineer nearby, I will get the artillery die re-roll.  I've had a lot of success with this war machine and it's a toss up if the organ gun or this is the better war machine.  Organ gun's chew threw anything with armour but the flame cannon is a beefed up template thrower of doom.  All I know is that when I play against dwarfs I don't want anything to do with the flame cannon or organ gun.  When I use the flame cannon, my opponents don't even want to give me a target with it.

 

 

So, that's the list.  I know I have had many talks with many of you in the past about not wanting to run gyrocopters in my army; however, after long consideration and pro's vs con's I have decided that they are needed in order to redirect and be a target priority for my opponents magic and/or shooting.  Thanks to everyone who had positive things to say about the copters and letting me know why I should give them a try.

[Don't Panic]

nice.  yea i like the OG pen with engineer as well.  ive ran that before and its pretty great, it just annihilates WoC and T4.  imo the FC benefits way more from just a forging than throwing another 45 points in an engineer.  but it probably hurts the swedish a bit, so i bet thats why you did that.  also did you put rune of stoicism on the bsb or the breakers?  make sure to put it on the unit if it doesnt hurt you more(which i dont think it does) so then you dont lose stubborn when someone kills the bsb.  and xboxs dont get AP from runesmith, only CC attacks get the AP.  i would love if that were true... another fun thing i like to do with copters is counter flank/rear charge with them(against some things, not all) to boost CR and increases chance of running down with swiftstride.  they will grow on you... once again a pretty unique dwarf list.  nice job!

[MexicanNinja]

I went with the second engineer for the FC because it's only 1 WMP and it keeps it non magical so I can wreck the unit with BotWD.  I didn't put the rune of stoicism on the ironbreakers because I didn't want to spend points on a second rune and the overall outcome still kept me above 13.  Good call on the AP thing, in with the breakers it is then.

 

 

I also went with the pen rune on the OG so that I can still put fear in MC and monsters (not ideal for shooting monsters but if the cannon and/or thrower can't get the job done then I had to have a back up).

 

I was really surprised that I was able to get 2 engineers, 2 gyro's, and 4 war machines in the list and keep it at a 14.  I then said to myself, my opponent's aren't going to feel sorry for me when they get that killer magic phase so I'll retort with a devestating shooting phase and force them to either sit back and get shot at or force them across to engage my blocks.  Easier said then done, I know, but at least the shooting can seem extremely threatening during deployment.  I haven't taken this many war machines since I played Empire back in 6th and 7th (mortar, 2 cannons, 2 hellblasters).

[Kingpin]

A little off topic but where can I find the rules for Swedish comp? Kind of new to this.

[Norrad]

Follow this link for the Swedish Comp Ruleset.  

 

http://swfbr.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4494

[Don't Panic]

ah i was confused cause you worded it under the ironbreakers that the bsb being put in there makes them stubborn.  nice reasoning for the single WMP.  i think runesmith in ironbreakers is pretty necessary, otherwise they get murdered by 1+as things.  yea i was shocked with how lightly dwarfs are hit.  i got mine as 13 now and its not what i would call a soft list at all along with yours either!  dwarfs should be pretty fun to play in swedish.

[MexicanNinja]

I agree completely about dwarfs not being hit too hard with comp. I'll have to look at my list again because I thought I put the stoisicm rune on my bsbs.

[McNathanson]

That much shooting really scares me, and I can't believe it comps at 14!  I'd be hard pressed to run with that army with either of my armies.  

 

Your infantry blocks are amazing grinders (especially those cursed IronBreakers who I think are so underrated), which are great for shielding your war machines.  And to have 4 runed up war machines and an Engineer to supplement, there's very little that you won't be able to force to come across at you.  The flame cannon and grudge thrower reduce units to rubble, and the organ gun is great for finishing them off to get you your points.

I think it's a great list as long as it doesn't have so much shooting that you just sit back and annihilate your opponents without even putting your own units at risk.  I'd have to do some math (too lazy right now) to see how fast it really rips whole units apart.  Definitely a winning design, though.

[MexicanNinja]

Yes there's a bunch of shooting. My counter statement would be that it's not fun getting torn apart by magic either. A few certain spells and this army gets flipped upside down. Yes, the flame cannon and grudge thrower rip blocks of infantry apart. I also added the variety of war machines based on armies I've played in the past. Non-engage armies have to fear the war machines while horde armies need to fear the templates. I have played several games where opponents didn't want to engage by infatry so they just shot and avoided them. That is extremely frustrating when play a move 3 army. This list pretty much forces the engagement.

[Fixxer]

If I played Dwarfs, Id certainly be running 3-4 WMs as they are the strong point of the army. I think without a magic phase and real mobility they need a strong shooting phase to be consistently competitive. Great list, I like it.

[McNathanson]

Yeah I didn't mean to say it has too much shooting.  I think it is borderline... against some armies you might be able to win without putting any of your units in harms way, or without coming up with a strategy or doing anything tactical other than "shoot anything that's a threat"; if that turns out to be the case, I think you'll get bored of playing it pretty quickly.  On the other hand, perhaps in other matchups it's just enough to force people to come at you, but you'll still have to play the rest of the game to get the win, and in these matchups it'll be just the right amount of shooting!  Dwarfs are a tough army that way to find the right balance, because too little shooting and you get avoided, and too much and it's not a fun game.  Hard to find that balance in an all-comers tourney style list!  Curious to hear how your games go!

[Kremmet]

Ehh, something would have to go really wrong for most any list to not be able to close with this.  Dwarfs really aren't that hard to balance when you're trying to win consistently against good players as their lists need combat balance to actually function, but it is very difficult for most opponents to recognize how a proper dwarf list works due to how foreign they are from the central point of the game especially in the current edition.

 

I must say that I really like this list.  The small Quarrelers aren't really a unit I subscribe to as they're an easy target for points without bringing much of anything to the table, but otherwise it seems like a very entertaining and well thought out affair.  If anything it definitely shows how much dwarfs benefit from Swedish. 

[Brick Bungalow]

I dig it. More war machines than I prefer but the variety certainly helps. I have trouble getting the most out of ironbreakers... I usually prefer a larger block or multiple blocks of warriors but I'm odd-man-out on that. If were to suggest a change I do think two gyros can be OTT. They are so darn effective at disrupting marchers, fast cav and skirmishers. Plus it disrupts the otherwise one-of-each theme. 

[MexicanNinja]

@Kremmmet- The Quarrelers are there because they are cheaper than irondrakes, don't take a huge comp hit, and can help clear up chaff before they get to my war machines.  They can also preform a "sacrifice charge" on a unit of knights to thin them out and maybe hold them up for a turn.

 

@Brick- Yes, 4 war machines may seem like a lot but we also don't have a magic phase.  IMO, you can get the same outcome with an Empire army and still pack in magic (cannon, steam tank, hellblaster).  I have had nothing but huge success with my ironbreakers.  Those things are rock solid and have held the line for me in nearly every game I played them.  My opinion on warriors is "why?"  Longbeards cost a little more but get better stats and ITP.  I thought about only going with 1 gyrocopter but two of them keep my opponents fast cav, flankers, scouts, and ambushers out of harms way for a turn or two.  One just doesn't get the job done.

 

As a more general statement, yes, Dwarfs don't seem to get too hard with swedish comp.  However, they bring no magic that is game changing to the table.  They have no super spell but can still lose to one.  They don't bring hex's or augments to change the outcome of certaiarn combats or shooting, or many other things.  This is made up with their war machines.  Without the mass collection of war machines available to the Dwarfs they wouldn't be much of a threat to anyone.  I have played many games where I am trying to move my blocks of infantry across the board (not easy to do with movement 3") and all my opponents do is move back, around, or to the side and keep pounding my infantry with magic and/or shooting.  This list forces the combat at some point in the game, unless my opponents want to get hit with 4 war machines a turn.  At the same time, a single "super spell" can wreck this army in one magic phase.

[McNathanson]

Yeah man I don't think you need to worried that your list is "OP" or generally too strong, not at all.  Show me Dwarves cleaning house at a bunch of big tournaments and we can start having that conversation :)

 

But my only concern (which again would only be in certain matchups) is that with this much shooting and your good playing skills you will be able to win just by sitting still and shooting face.  That's not very fun for either player really.  Again though, you'll just have to see.  It's close enough to be right on the edge IMO, for our local meta which you and I both know is fairly soft compared to some :)

 

Let us know how it goes.  It's a very cool looking army on the table, that's for sure!!  I hope it leads to fun and satisfying games.

[Prophecy]

I think shooting really is the strong point of the army though. For me it is all about Quarrellers. You can shoot people from 30 inches away and get a great weapon what is not to like? Like MN says movement is a real tough point for the army. I can agree so why move when you don't have to. The only gunline lists I really make are dwarves because you don't have the protection of magic and you aren't fast. The best things in your army are stationary pieces so with that logic you should dig in.

[Don't Panic]

just an fyi i bring the 10 quarrelers naked and ive lost them i think 2-3 times ever.  and i bring them in about 80% of my lists mostly cause at 2400-2500 they fit the bill for the points after longbeards, give you a drop and nick off wounds where you need them(as you stated).  are they great? nah most things can own them even with GW or shields due to their static-ness caused by xbows gets them flanked quite easily.  thats why i just keep them cheap. i do worry that 150 points make be too much into them, but swedish is so generous to those 10 guys that i think your build totally makes up for those 30 points in comp and they are great for swedish!

as for shooting, dwarfs need it and i get tired of people that complain about it.  3-4 war machines is not a gunline.  it is what dwarfs need to make you come at us to not allow our M3 to just completely fail us.  ask MN what he would do with his DE facing dwarfs that didnt have shooting... it would be comical.  and as stated think of it as a combined damage from magic/shooting.  dwarfs have to compensate for both phases in one phase.  so yes it seems like a ton of shooting, but really its not that much of a difference than the combined average phases of opponents range attacks.  

but yes, actually gunlines are still probably the big winners of 'uncomp' dwarfs because the average damage output and whatever gets in cant usually deal with those S5 quarrelers.  they are totally unreliable though, rock/paper/scissors and not fun to play against.  thats why i like swedish though, makes the melee dwarfs come out and they can play big ball with everyone else!  excited to try it out... are you thinking of bringing dwarfs to brawl MN? curious what you would do at 2400

[Kremmet]

I like a lot of what I'm reading here because people understanding the weaknesses of dwarfs makes me hapy, but the idea that static dwarf lists are the ones that do well in uncomped affairs is a little off the mark.  I spent most of last year playing dwarfs and the only events I went to were uncomped.  Not to push my own skill or that this small sample size makes a sizable impact on public opinion, but I did very well with a dwarf list focusing mainly on combat with war machines as my only shooting (1xcannon, 1xGrudge, 2xOrgan to be exact).  This style of play seems to be coming into its own as people realize that dwarfs work best as an MMU army while still having a fair amount of personal flair open to them.  The problem is that this does not extend to Gyros and war machines if you're looking to make anything competitive.

[MexicanNinja]

I'm not bringing dwarfs to the brawl.

[Romes]

Personally I think dwarves are the second softest comp army in swedish right now. =P I think they get away with a lot because they don't post the big tournament results - but I don't think that's because they're not good - I think it's because so many players in the 20-0 events that inform the comp just go for the 8, 9 or 10 point sit back game rather than play on the dwarf player's terms (think Charge of the Light Brigade). The opponent can sack a 8-10 point game or 2, but the dwarf player can't place at the top when 3-4 opponents do that.

 

If you're worried about losing a game to a big spell take a second spellbreaker lvl2, between winds of magic distribution, 2 scrolls, and the 50% spell eating, your opponent is basically praying for a miscast the whole time.

 

From a comp efficient standpoint, I like the build as a whole, though I'm not entirely sold on the flame cannon, but the variety is nice. The ironbreakers are an interesting choice, I haven't seen them on the table am am curious how they'll do. I think because of how soft the comp is on the army, and because players will be tempted to sit back, it's important to be near the top of the range, which you did a good job of doing without losing too much firepower.