Reliable AA?

[Guest]

Working on Exorcists using the DA codex. I'm not about to find Reliable AA options in that codex, so looking for suggestions from outside the codex.

 

Are rifle dreads reliable AA in this edition? I'm thinking no, but I could be wrong.

 

The FW Mortis Dreads are perfect, but not legal everywhere.

 

If possible, I'd prefer to steer clear of another SM chapter or chaos, but I'm game for xenos allies or guard. No major objections to disgruntle or suspicious allies.

 

Other suggestions?

[WestRider]

Tau are pretty much the kings of AA, with the ability to get optional Skyfire on any of their suits, plus a couple of ways to get Ignores Cover to bypass Jink Saves.

 

Necrons are pretty solid right now, between Annihilation Barges and Night Scythes, but I expect that to change when they get their codex re-write soon.

 

Other than that, it's pretty much all about bringing your own good Flyer. Vendettas (tho I know you haven't had them work out well for you), Storm Ravens, Storm Talons, and StormWolves are pretty much the list in many ways.

 

Consider the StormWing Formation. 1 Raven and 2 Talons, they don't have Chapter Tactics, so it really doesn't matter that they're C:SM rather than DA now that Bros can hop in each other's rides.

[Guest]

Thanks.

 

How about eldar? Or Astra Millitarum, for that matter?

[WestRider]

Astra Militarum basically just have the Vendetta for good AA. The Hydra is overpriced, and total garbage if the other side doesn't have Flyers or Skimmers.

 

Eldar pretty much rely on spamming Wave Serpents and using volume of fire (generally Twin-Linked because of Scatter Lasers). The Crimson Hunter packs a good hit, but it's way too fragile and expensive to really be considered reliable. I've dropped them with non-skyfiring Bolters more than once, and if anything with real AA firepower gets a shot at them, they're pretty much gone.

[Torg]

I like my Eldar Nightwing interceptor for this :)

 

-d

[WestRider]

Forge World does open up some more options, yes. The Vulture can be built for decent Anti-Air, the Chaos Fire Raptor is great at it, some of the other Flyers are pretty good. Mortis Dreads, of course. I think there are one or two other ground-based options that can choose whether or not to have Skyfire from FW as well.

[PourSpelur]

Big Trakk with Flakka kannon!

No idea if it's any good but it sure looks cool;)

For a real answer please see the above posts.

[fluger]

I think the best defense against AA is to not pay for it and then if someone brings flyers, just flip the table and run away.

[pretre]

I think the best defense against AA is to not pay for it and then if someone brings flyers, just flip the table and run away.

lol

 

My version of this is 'I think the best defense against AA is to not pay for it and then if someone brings flyers, ignore them and win anyways.'

[Guest]

Thanks again.

 

Oh, by TAU, your talking about suits only, or are you including their flyers, infantry, and/or tanks?

[WestRider]

Mostly the Suits. Forgot about the Sky Ray, that's a good option, too. But Broadsides are probably better in an Allied force. Their Infantry don't have any good AA options, and their Flyers are mediocre at best.

[Guest]

Can you elaborate on why the TAU flyers are lacking? Aside from the necron flyers which are sure to get a point increase/nerf with the next book, Seems like the TAU flyers are pretty good for their points. 

[WestRider]

Not right now. I'll give you a run-down when I'm back home with access to my Dex.

[AbusePuppy]

Can you elaborate on why the TAU flyers are lacking? Aside from the necron flyers which are sure to get a point increase/nerf with the next book, Seems like the TAU flyers are pretty good for their points. 

 

Sun Shark: Drones can only ever snapfire at ground targets and thus can't use their blast mode; AV11/10/10 means the vehicle is fairly easy to bring down and even Bolters can potentially glance it; Pulse Bomb has a weak profile overall and is extremely unreliable for multiple uses; BS3 (BS2 for Drones) means direct-fire weapons do not have the accuracy to consistently destroy targets.

 

Razorshark: BS3 and lack of twin-linked mean the main main and secondary guns are actually surprisingly unimpressive most of the time; AP4 makes it ineffective against FMCs and MEQs both; AV11/10/10 leaves it vulnerable just like its cousin airframe; fewer overall armaments and nigh-identical overall profiles actually mean it is less effective in both ground-attack and air-to-air roles; other Tau vehicles and infantry can easily fill the same job but better in most every case.

 

While neither of them are outright atrocious, they are not particularly good, either. The Barracuda (from FW) is a far, far better chassis for a similar price, and the Tau codex has so many good or great units in it that paying a significant chunk of points for a mediocre one is really quite a waste.

[Guest]

Sun Shark: Drones can only ever snapfire at ground targets and thus can't use their blast mode; AV11/10/10 means the vehicle is fairly easy to bring down and even Bolters can potentially glance it; Pulse Bomb has a weak profile overall and is extremely unreliable for multiple uses; BS3 (BS2 for Drones) means direct-fire weapons do not have the accuracy to consistently destroy targets.

 

Razorshark: BS3 and lack of twin-linked mean the main main and secondary guns are actually surprisingly unimpressive most of the time; AP4 makes it ineffective against FMCs and MEQs both; AV11/10/10 leaves it vulnerable just like its cousin airframe; fewer overall armaments and nigh-identical overall profiles actually mean it is less effective in both ground-attack and air-to-air roles; other Tau vehicles and infantry can easily fill the same job but better in most every case.

 

While neither of them are outright atrocious, they are not particularly good, either. The Barracuda (from FW) is a far, far better chassis for a similar price, and the Tau codex has so many good or great units in it that paying a significant chunk of points for a mediocre one is really quite a waste.

Hmmm...

 

I do agree with the weak profile defensively. They do have a few upgrades for some degree of added durability. That said, durability isn't something I look for in TAU. At least this unit can't be assaulted...

 

Maybe you see it too, I'll just state my perspective to verify:

 

First, both planes have 2x seeker missiles and can work with marker lights. This means BS3 isn't as crippling as it appears.

 

Razorshark has 6x S7 ap4 shots at 30" via that quad turret and a 5pt missile pod.

 

Sunshark is an interesting one. I can move it forward from reserve. Drop a bomb, Shoot 6 S7 ap4 shots (2x TL missile pod, 4x rapid drone shots), shoot a markerlight, and fire 2 seeker missiles in one turn. Then, on my opponent's turn, my "passengers" can intercept their reserves. If you go first and opponent has flyers, this means you could potentially have your interceptor weapons not vulnerable and on the table turn 1, arrive just before their flyers, and force their flyers to jink when they arrive.

 

I agree, the BS2 drones aren't terribly impressive in terms of hitting things, and recall that they don't benefit from markerlights. They are twin-linked rapid fire weapons, which really isn't horrible. Orks can vouch for this one . Though more seriously, BS2 does mean that snapping at ground targets really doesn't impair your shooting that much. It is also notable that because the drones are passengers, them using snapping at ground targets doesn't mean the flyer has to snap at ground targets too.

[AbusePuppy]

Drones attached to a vehicle benefit from any Markerlight counters it has expended, but also must fire at the same target it fires at. And being forced to Snapfire prevents them from using the Blast fire mode, which they otherwise would find extremely useful.

 

Six S7 shots sounds like a lot until you realize they're BS1/3 ones, which means that even within Rapid Fire range, you're only netting about two hits against ground targets. (Against air targets it's slightly better, but chances are you won't get to do that often.) With units like Crisis and Broadsides providing far more shots for far fewer points, it's hard to justify the use of either airplane.

 

The Seeker Missiles (and Markerlight on the Sun Shark) are nice to have, but don't contribute majorly to their firepower.

[WestRider]

Thanks, AP. Like I said, they come in as sort of mediocre. In a different context, they might be worthwhile, but since the Tau Dex has so many things that can do any job they might do better and cheaper, there's just always a better option available.

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, there's not really anything that their airplanes do all that well or that something else doesn't do better. AA? Riptide, Commander, Broadsides, or Skyray. Pie plates? Riptide or Hammerhead. Intercept? Every single suit in the armory. Unit hunter? Piranhas or Crisis. Etc.

[Guest]

So then the main argument against the TAU planes isn't that they are lacking, but that the rest of the TAU are better? Seems fair, was just wondering.

 

I did think of another minor thing that the TAU drone flyer can do, which would be supporting fire, as the drones do qualify for that. Not really any major addition to the army, but a notable extra.

 

I was just thinking that regarding points when compared to other flyers, the points aren't too bad for what the TAU planes do, even if the TAU have other, more reliable AA from other sources. At least, points of current codex models.

 

So, for sake of argument, if the choice is between a tau sun shark and a pair of quad lascannon vengeance batteries, which is better?

 

I'm not sure I'm going this direction at all, but I don't think I'll get answers to unasked questions. I am curious regarding the TAU flyers.

[AbusePuppy]

So then the main argument against the TAU planes isn't that they are lacking, but that the rest of the TAU are better? Seems fair, was just wondering.

 

Some of A, some of B. The Tau planes are very mediocre for their points- not as bad as, say, the Nephelim, but quite underwhelming. That alone would not be damning; however, the fact that the Tau codex has a plethora of other good choices in every single slot means that there is virtually no incentive at all to run either of them.

 

 

I did think of another minor thing that the TAU drone flyer can do, which would be supporting fire, as the drones do qualify for that. Not really any major addition to the army, but a notable extra.

 

Eh, every Tau unit has Supporting Fire (bar vehicles), so that can't really be counted much in their favor; it would be like listing ATSKNF as an advantage of a Space Marine unit- it's not really unique to the unit, so it doesn't count. Also, unless you disembark them, the vehicle chassis is fairly high up, so chances are good you won't be within 6" of any friendly units- all the more so because of the forced 18" movement.

 

 

I was just thinking that regarding points when compared to other flyers, the points aren't too bad for what the TAU planes do, even if the TAU have other, more reliable AA from other sources. At least, points of current codex models.

 

So, for sake of argument, if the choice is between a tau sun shark and a pair of quad lascannon vengeance batteries, which is better?

 

For the Vengeance vs Sun Shark? I'd probably take the Sun Shark, because it is at least flexible in what it can hit. However, I think a better "generic" AA unit to compare to would be a Firestorm Redoubt or Aegis Line with Quad Gun, both of which I would rank over the Sun Shark. (I don't consider the Quad Las Vengeance Batteries to be particularly good- they're too expensive and not useful enough against too many lists.)

[Guest]

Eh, every Tau unit has Supporting Fire (bar vehicles), so that can't really be counted much in their favor; it would be like listing ATSKNF as an advantage of a Space Marine unit- it's not really unique to the unit, so it doesn't count. Also, unless you disembark them, the vehicle chassis is fairly high up, so chances are good you won't be within 6" of any friendly units- all the more so because of the forced 18" movement.

 

For the Vengeance vs Sun Shark? I'd probably take the Sun Shark, because it is at least flexible in what it can hit. However, I think a better "generic" AA unit to compare to would be a Firestorm Redoubt or Aegis Line with Quad Gun, both of which I would rank over the Sun Shark. (I don't consider the Quad Las Vengeance Batteries to be particularly good- they're too expensive and not useful enough against too many lists.)

Well, quad vengeance is what I've been running for my AA, hence where I'm coming from. The sunshark is similar points.

 

In regards to supporting fire, it is somewhat unique for the sunshark, as it can't actually be assaulted, given it's a flyer without hover mode. Beyond that, I do agree that the supporting fire rule is nothing special for TAU.

 

On a side note, does anyone actually own a sun shark? How high are the wings from the table? Like with stock/normal modeling construction? I'm wondering from a PFG standpoint (DA Power field Generator).

[AbusePuppy]

I would strongly recommend switching over to a Firestorm Redoubt if you can afford it. With the Magos Machine Spirit upgrade for added accuracy, it actually becomes a legitimate threat to inbound aircraft and the ability to stick a squad inside it to shoot out as well as add an additional Quad Gun or Icarus Lascannon make it pretty effective as an AA platform. For armies that struggle with that sort of thing, it's a powerful (if a bit pricey) option.

 

The Sun Shark's wings are ~4.5" off the ground; it's certainly possible to get Supporting Fire or a PFG to come into play, but it's a bit tricky.

[Guest]

I do actually own a FSR. I stopped using it for a few reasons, main being point cost. I will note that my FSR was destroyed in a few games, while those vengeace batteries almost never take any damage. I have not had any games where I thought the FSR would shoot better than my icarus vengeance batteries. The BS increase is lacking when you recall that both versions of the icarus must snap at non-skimmer ground targets.

[AbusePuppy]

The FSR is a bit more vulnerable to damage, it's true (although it does have more HP than the Vengeance do individually and can purchase a Void Shield if you're worried about that sort of thing.) However, the reason it gets shot at is because it's typically much more relevant to the game, whereas many armies can just ignore the Vengeance because they know it won't accomplish anything important.

 

If you're buying the FSR or Vengeance for AA duties, being better at that role is pretty significant, I think. No, it won't help against ground targets, but a lot of armies have skimmers or flyers these days- Space Marines have Stormtalons and Stormravens, Tyranids have Hive Tyrants, Harpies and Crones, Eldar have Wave Serpents, Hornets, and Night Spinners, Tau have Devilfish, Hammerheads and Skyrays, Necrons have Command Barges, Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes, and Ghost Arks. With the exception of Knights, every top-tier army in the game these days has the potential to run not just one but multiple effective airborne targets, so I think the Magos upgrade makes good sense.