Swan-of-War Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Well then I should demand all those Adult Entertainment awards go to me and not all those actors I was wiener-doubling for. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Well then I should demand all those Adult Entertainment awards go to me and not all those actors I was wiener-doubling for. Maybe but i'm sure it would be just a small award. j/k 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swan-of-War Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 touché! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Do you feel accomplished if you win best painted and you didn't paint a model in your army? Because that just feels wrong to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Personally, I feel a discount on the admission cost is reasonable for any prizes you don't qualify for (qualify as in could win). I mean, prize support is a good part of admission to a 40k event. If best painted can't be achieved by your army because you didn't paint it, then you should get a discount, as your money should not be going towards prizes you cannot win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 The question I see with this one: what is the point of the best painted award? Is the idea to encourage painted armies in the event, so as to have great photos for future events? Or is it purely about seeing who is the better painter? If the point is just to see the better painter, then a commissioned army is no different than an unpainted army. If the point is more focused on having painted armies on the table, then denial of prize support for commissioned armies seems counter productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Personally, I feel a discount on the admission cost is reasonable for any prizes you don't qualify for (qualify as in could win). I mean, prize support is a good part of admission to a 40k event. If best painted can't be achieved by your army because you didn't paint it, then you should get a discount, as your money should not be going towards prizes you cannot win. The kind of player who goes to a tournament for the prize support is precisely the type of player I don't want at any tournament I would run. I don't say that to be a troll, it's just that we obviously have VERY different ways of looking at tournaments. Edit: to respond to the second post, the reason folks reward painting is to celebrate the effort and talent that the tournament participants put into their hobby. in the same way that General is to celebrate the effort and talent of tournament participants in gameplay. Sports is to celebrate the effort and talent that tournament participants put into making sure their opponents enjoy themselves. best overall rewards effort and talent in all three. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 The kind of player who goes to a tournament for the prize support is precisely the type of player I don't want at any tournament I would run. I don't say that to be a troll, it's just that we obviously have VERY different ways of looking at tournaments. I'm quite the opposite. I'm frugal. I don't want to pay anymore than I have to. 40k is already expensive. Most events rationalize their entry fee based on prize support. If I am contributing to prizes that I was never allowed any chance of winning, due to my commissioned army, I feel cheated. Buying a lottery ticket with almost no chance of winning is very different from buying lottery tickets with no chance of winning. EDIT: personally, I'm totally against prize support, as it strikes me as gambling, which bothers me. I think the awards are fine, but I don't think events need prizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'm quite the opposite. I'm frugal. I don't want to pay anymore than I have to. 40k is already expensive. Most events rationalize their entry fee based on prize support. If I am contributing to prizes that I was never allowed any chance of winning, due to my commissioned army, I feel cheated. Buying a lottery ticket with almost no chance of winning is very different from buying lottery tickets with no chance of winning. Then, if a tournament requires you to paint your own army to win a prize, don't go to that tournament. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottshoemaker Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 The problem with awarding the painter, is that you can't always be sure. Did they paint every single model in the army? Did they assemble it? Did they base it? Are they telling the truth? If you create that expectation/limitation that it has to have been done by that person or they can't get the award, then you open yourself to fraud. Is it a worthy endeavor? Sure. Can you prove it? Not reliably. So if you want a Best Painted Army award, then let it be open to however the army got painted. If you want a Best Painter award, then be prepared, come up with clear criteria, and hope people are honest. You could also have a speed painting round somewhere in the competition. Provide the same basic model to each person that wants to enter, give them two hours, and then judge. :) Um, no. Any event worth their salt will define what the qualifications are. Your example above defines a cheater. I'm not fond of cheating. This type of logic is the same as using loaded dice to win Best General. "But it doesn't say in the Tourny packet that I can't use loaded dice" is a dick move. So is passing off a paid painted army as your own work. It's called plagiarism. When I was really active in running events I zeroed folks appearance scores for lying about the paint work. This is a matter I'll throw down on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Then, if a tournament requires you to paint your own army to win a prize, don't go to that tournament. So the event about playing 40k should be avoided by players who don't paint their armies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 So the event about playing 40k should be avoided by players who don't paint their armies? Yes, an event about playing/painting/sports in 40k should be avoided by players who don't paint their own armies and are bent out of shape because they can't win any painting prizes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottshoemaker Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 You can't sign up for a paid tourny and expect a refund because you won't be eligible for something. Soccer Moms did this to us... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Pretty much this. The idea of winning an award based on someone else's hobby is abhorrent. People who don't write their own army list shouldn't be allowed to win, either. If you get advice from anyone else, YOU weren't the one who created the army and so you don't deserve the win. I'm also against people who get Best General due to experience they gained by playing against other opponents. I came to the tournament to play YOU, not the dozens or hundreds of other people that you played against in the past, and it's not fair to pit me against the combined lessons you may have picked up from all of them. And Favorite Army awards should only be winnable by players who create their own, custom chapters/craftworlds/etc. Just picking Ultramarines or Black Legion or whatever and using it as your own is basically the same thing as stealing the food from a starving child's mouth and it shows a distinct lack of character and creativity. In fact, I don't think anyone should be allowed to win any prizes for Warhammer 40,000 at all unless they designed and wrote the game themselves, mixed their own paints from scratch, sculpted and cast every model in their army, carved a paintbrush and cut off the needed horsehair, mined the lead for the figurines by hand with tools they made themselves, and then walked (not drove! you didn't build that car, you just bought it!) to the tournament in clothes they stitched themselves. Anything less is just dishonest, you see. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 You can't sign up for a paid tourny and expect a refund because you won't be eligible for something. Not a refund. A discount. And this, only if your event rationalizes it's cost as being divided into prize support. If entry into the event doesn't reflect prizes, then I don't care about a discount. I dislike the injustice of charging people for things that you have no intention of giving them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 People who don't write their own army list shouldn't be allowed to win, either. If you get advice from anyone else, YOU weren't the one who created the army and so you don't deserve the win. I'm also against people who get Best General due to experience they gained by playing against other opponents. I came to the tournament to play YOU, not the dozens or hundreds of other people that you played against in the past, and it's not fair to pit me against the combined lessons you may have picked up from all of them. And Favorite Army awards should only be winnable by players who create their own, custom chapters/craftworlds/etc. Just picking Ultramarines or Black Legion or whatever and using it as your own is basically the same thing as stealing the food from a starving child's mouth and it shows a distinct lack of character and creativity. In fact, I don't think anyone should be allowed to win any prizes for Warhammer 40,000 at all unless they designed and wrote the game themselves, mixed their own paints from scratch, sculpted and cast every model in their army, carved a paintbrush and cut off the needed horsehair, mined the lead for the figurines by hand with tools they made themselves, and then walked (not drove! you didn't build that car, you just bought it!) to the tournament in clothes they stitched themselves. Anything less is just dishonest, you see. Meh. I think that's taking it a bit far. Grats on the big win, btw! Just heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 People who don't write their own army list shouldn't be allowed to win, either. If you get advice from anyone else, YOU weren't the one who created the army and so you don't deserve the win. I'm also against people who get Best General due to experience they gained by playing against other opponents. I came to the tournament to play YOU, not the dozens or hundreds of other people that you played against in the past, and it's not fair to pit me against the combined lessons you may have picked up from all of them. And Favorite Army awards should only be winnable by players who create their own, custom chapters/craftworlds/etc. Just picking Ultramarines or Black Legion or whatever and using it as your own is basically the same thing as stealing the food from a starving child's mouth and it shows a distinct lack of character and creativity. In fact, I don't think anyone should be allowed to win any prizes for Warhammer 40,000 at all unless they designed and wrote the game themselves, mixed their own paints from scratch, sculpted and cast every model in their army, carved a paintbrush and cut off the needed horsehair, mined the lead for the figurines by hand with tools they made themselves, and then walked (not drove! you didn't build that car, you just bought it!) to the tournament in clothes they stitched themselves. Anything less is just dishonest, you see. And here I was getting upset. Well played, you used satire to show them the ridiculous nature of what they are saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Ah! The heady combination of sarcasm and straw men! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 And here I was getting upset. Well played, you used satire to show them the ridiculous nature of what they are saying. Except it is a false equivalency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Except it is a false equivalency. To certain extent. This "my way or highway" approach bugs me, especially as those advocating for self-painted armies only are the same players that would never show up with an army not painted by themselves. Seems like self interest in thinning out the competition. If your armies are well painted, then you really nothing to fear about commissioned armies getting painting scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 There's a difference between a well-painted army and an army painted by a professional. I cannot match a professional's technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottshoemaker Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Except it is a false equivalency. The equivalency to me is signing up for a tourney, then paying a much more accomplished player to play your games for you, then claiming award/prize at the end. We (of the "they" camp) are saying that a person should be honest about having commissioned an army. If an event has a Best Painted award, read the rules for qualifying for Best Painted. If they state you must have painted the army yourself, then there you go. If a person doesn't disclose the commissioned work, then they are a liar. Simple. Consequences to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PourSpelur Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Personally, I feel a discount on the admission cost is reasonable for any prizes you don't qualify for (qualify as in could win). I mean, prize support is a good part of admission to a 40k event. If best painted can't be achieved by your army because you didn't paint it, then you should get a discount, as your money should not be going towards prizes you cannot win. I've never won a game of 40k. Do I get a discount? I'm not going to win best general...;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterman Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Alright, discussion time. What is everyone's opinions on being eligible to win a best painted award with an army that was commissioned / bought? Should you have to paint your army yourself, or is the award reserved for the best of the best, no matter the artist? I would love to hear your thoughts. From a TOs perspective -- having run multiple 30-40 attendee events across 4 editions and several tournament style paradigm shifts -- I would say its not worth the time, hassle and grief you get to try and award only the artist. We used to do so at the Storm/Harvester for both best appearance and favorite army award because in a prefect world that is what you'd want. We finally gave up on trying to do so. There's too many grey areas and frankly the guys that are serious about their craft tend to filter to the top over most studio work -- so it creates drama and headache for almost no gain. What grey areas you might ask? Well the ones brought up really. At what point do you say you aren't the artist? * If you bought a prebuilt army on ebay and stripped and painted it. Technically you did not build it, so you are not truly 100% the artist. * What if you bought or had someone make a cool conversion for your warlord. Technically you did not build it, so you are not truly 100% the artist. Even if it was your idea. * What if your teammates helped you finish an army before an event. Even something as simple as painting some bases. Technically you did not paint all the army, so you are not truly 100% the artist. * etc etc. What it comes down to is having to deal with those grey areas (and they occur all the time), having to deal with the folks who are upset about being excluded, having to penalize someone who is honest while not being able to do a damn thing about someone you don't know who was dishonest -- its all simply not worth it in the scheme of things. One or two serious painters will be happy, most won't care or will feel it is unfair or poorly managed. As a final point, over the years I have come to see owning an army you didn't paint to owning a restored car you didn't actually restore but paid someone to do so. Your car will still win awards at competitions and you are still the proud owner. Just hopefully you are the type that will give credit where its due when accepting the award. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 There's a difference between a well-painted army and an army painted by a professional. I cannot match a professional's technique. I could be wrong, but isn't what makes them professional solely based on them getting paid to do it? The quality level isn't really reflected by the person being professional. Like the difference between a murderer and an assassin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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