Quick rules ?'s. (Codex inq/re-rolls)

[Psilence]

1. Codex inquisition allows psykers to roll on the telekinesis, telepathy, pyro, divination, and sanctic psychic tables.

 

Question is weather they can roll on malefic as well (per main rule book p.28/'the discipline of daemonology'). Or if they may not since their tables are specifically called out.

 

2. Is a re-roll a modifier? Ref p. 11 main book and p. 96 in GK dex.

 

Pertains to GK's aegis special rule. They re-roll 1's to deny the witch. Do they get this effect if they are not the target of an enemies psychic power?

[AbusePuppy]

1. I would say no from a pure rules standpoint, since the Inquisition book had its text specifically updated for 7E. However, from a fluff standpoint (as well as what I would be open to playing against) I think I'd be fine with it.

 

2. A reroll is not a modifier; ergo, I believe the Aegis would apply to an attempt to Deny an enemy blessing/conjuration/etc. It's one of the few such abilities that would.

[Guest]

I believe the Aegis would apply to an attempt to Deny an enemy blessing/conjuration/etc. It's one of the few such abilities that would.

Interesting. Did not know this.

[WestRider]

I would disagree on the Aegis. It's an effect that can be used when those particular Units are making a DtW test. If the power being manifested doesn't target one of the Units on the field with the Aegis, that Unit isn't making the test, it's just the Player making it.

[AbusePuppy]

That's actually not true, West. The BRB specifies that in the case of such powers, you nominate one of your units to make the Deny attempt but gain no bonuses to the roll, hence the question of whether a reroll is a "bonus."

[Guest]

That's actually not true, West. The BRB specifies that in the case of such powers, you nominate one of your units to make the Deny attempt but gain no bonuses to the roll, hence the question of whether a reroll is a "bonus."

It doesn't say no "bonuses."

 

It says no "modifiers."

 

Not sure if this makes the above wrong.

[DisruptiveConduct]

Page numbers and direct quotes are always awesome to post when discussing rules. :-)

[WestRider]

That's actually not true, West. The BRB specifies that in the case of such powers, you nominate one of your units to make the Deny attempt but gain no bonuses to the roll, hence the question of whether a reroll is a "bonus."

It says you "follow the same process", which requires selecting one of your Units "that was a target of the enemy's psychic power." There is no exception to that clause mentioned in the Deny the Witch section.

[Guest]

Page numbers and direct quotes are always awesome to post when discussing rules. :-)

We're talking about psychic powers in the BRB. It is a short section, page 22-28.

[WestRider]

Also, I've only got the ebook version on hand at the moment, which lacks page numbers :P

 

I did start quoting, tho.

[Psilence]

I have issues with the RAW argument, but don't have the books at work. I'll post the relevants once I get home. :)

[DisruptiveConduct]

I don't have a GK codex. :-)

[AbusePuppy]

It says you "follow the same process", which requires selecting one of your Units "that was a target of the enemy's psychic power." There is no exception to that clause mentioned in the Deny the Witch section.

 

Since the section in question is explicitly talking about powers that don't target your units, I think we can safely ignore that phrase. Or do you think you simply aren't allowed to roll Deny against such powers?

[WestRider]

Well, since it explicitly says you can deny them, you obviously have to be able to. Going strictly by RAW, the Rules here are straight-up self-contradictory, and no resolution is possible. Some sort of judgement call is required, and it seems to me to be a smaller step to expand "no modifiers" to cover partial re-rolls than to go for some roundabout "It's not actually targeting any of my Units, but for the sole purpose of DtW, it's targeting this Unit."

[Psilence]

P. 96 GK codex

 

The aegis. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls results of 1 when making a deny the witch tests.

 

P. 26 main book deny the witch

 

Paraphrased.

 

To make a DTW test select one of your units that was a target of the enemy's psychic power. Declare how many warp charges you wish to spend. Roll dice equal to the number warp charge points you spent.

 

Apply modifiers:

Unit has a psyker/psychic pilot/bro-hood of psykers/sorcerer rule +1

Mastery level higher than psyker manifesting the power +1

Adamantium will. +1

 

For each roll of 6 (or lower depending on mods) a warp charge has been nullified. If the number of nullified points equals or exceeds the number of harnessed warp charges the DTW roll has succeeded and the power doesn't manifest.

 

If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power ( blessings, conjurations, ect) you can still attempt a DTW. To do so follow the same process, but apply no modifiers, you will require 6's to nullify warp charge points.

 

So

 

By RAW to follow the same process you have to choose a unit that was the target of an enemy psychic power. Since blessings/ conjurations/ ect don't target your units, per RAW (of the "follow the same process") they could never be denied.

 

The bit about allowing DTW vs blessing/conjurations/ect specifically is raw as well though and states that they can be denied, and that you follow the same process, but pick a unit to DTW, even though none of them were the target of a power.

 

I.e.

Enemy casts a blessing.

Player chooses a GK unit to DTW.

Player allocates points like normal, and rolls his DTW dice, applying no modifiers.

A 1 is rolled.

The aegis special rule allows GK's to re roll 1's to DTW. GK re-rolls the 1.

 

Just my interpretation though. /shrug.

[WestRider]

You have to ignore at least part of the "choose a unit that was the target of an enemy psychic power" no matter how you slice it. If you ignore that whole chunk, the rule plays out nice and simply. If you just snip off the "target" bit, you end up with this one weird corner case that doesn't fit with every other bit of Psychic Defense in the Game.

 

This is where I go to "which is more likely?" Is it more likely that GW intended it to work like everything else, but wrote it sloppily, or that they intended it to be a major exception, but didn't bother stating anywhere that it was a major exception and assumed that Players would work through a convoluted and contradictory RAW to come to the conclusion that this was different from everything else?

[Psilence]

You have to ignore at least part of the "choose a unit that was the target of an enemy psychic power" no matter how you slice it.

I agree, but, 'choose a unit' works nicely. ;)

 

This is where I go to "which is more likely?" Is it more likely that GW intended it to work like everything else, but wrote it sloppily, or that they intended it to be a major exception, but didn't bother stating anywhere that it was a major exception and assumed that Players would work through a convoluted and contradictory RAW to come to the conclusion that this was different from everything else?

GW + rules writing has been silly for a long time. I think they go a little too heavy on the beer and a little too light on the pretzels sometimes :p

 

I agree with you that the aegis is unique, and that the rules for denying powers that don't target friendly units is a bit clunky.

 

I disagree that the RAW is contradictory, and feel it functions in such a way to allow GK's to re-roll 1's on DTW tests. It adheres to the same no modifier restrictions as all other DTW tests, but adds another layer unique to GK's. In that regard it is different than everything else. It also seats nicely into the fluff for an all psyker army :)

 

In any case, if someone had an issue with it in casual play I'd side with them instantly. No need to let it wreck a friendly game. In a tounement setting I would get a ruling before dice dropped, and go from there.

 

Doesn't really matter anyway. Grey Knights never roll 1's anyway ;) unless it's a terminator save being shot by a lasgun... :p

[WestRider]

The RAW is contradictory because it says you can Deny powers that don't target one of your Units, and then the first step in that process is to select one of your Units that was targeted. Of which there are none.