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Being (tournament) competitive without large turret ships?


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So initial online reports are trickling in from stores and players from the first round of the FFG tournament series and overwhelmingly the same net-lists are popping up in the top 4 time and time again.  Basically, people are running some variation of:

  1. Fat Han (frequently with 3 Z's rather than 2 X's, occasionally trimmed down to fit Corran Horn)
  2. Super-Dash (the 58 point build everyone is familiar with, also occasionally trimmed for Corran Horn)
  3. Decimator/Phantom duo (thankfully there is at least some pilot variety here between both ships)

Some stores/players have reported that the top 8 are fairly regularly exclusively some combination of these three builds/styles and it is fairly depressing.  The argument that swarms are a good counter to large ships falls apart in 60-75 minute rounds wherea couple delays can leave 1 hull point remaining on a large ship denying the swarm player those points (seriously hope there is a half-points change to tournament rules in the near future) and the inherent slower playing nature of swarms (gotta move all those pieces, take all those actions/shots, etc) means their games are realistically going to be fewer turns anyways which only compounds the problem.

 

I've read that there is a BBBBZ build which does well (36 combined hull/shields and 14 attack dice at range 2-3), but it feels a bit sluggish and cookie-cutter on paper, not to say it doesn't have potential though.

 

Anyone had any luck trying to break the mold with something competitive and not dependent on lists like those referenced above?  Not looking for specific lists or anything since people are likely refining their own secret-sauce for upcoming tournaments, but just curious if others have found nuggets of hope.

 

I'm hoping FFG addresses this issue in the coming year, but I have sincere doubts that anything in S&V will help to curb this particular mono-build trend that has developed.  I really do think that partial/half points for ships being at/below half hull/shields would be a step in the right direction, but seriously doubt they'll roll that change out midway into the start of a tournament series.

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Remember that the tournament scene is not a fantastic gauge to use. The Nationals are also going to be players that are going to bring the 'Best' combos but these are not the end all be all of any given meta. Also the Autothrusters will be a shift in the Fat Turrets but not becuase it will be that good of a card. When the internet sees abilities like this there is a huge crazy change that players feel they need to make to deal with the new changes.

 

Just getting back in again so I am absorbing in the wave 3-4 as fast as I can but really the real changes are not as big as I first thought it was. There are just more choices. And ever since the coming of the Falcon the big ship with a turret is good, but by no means the Best.

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TIE Interceptor aces with a vader doom shuttle is pretty legit. No fortressing just straight up outmanuevering on the flanks and doom shuttle finishes off damaged ships.

 

I like it cuz as a rebel player it gives me the opportunity of a moral victory when i take out vader.

 

I have been doing decent with corran horn, blount, and biggs.

 

Fat Han just has too many advantages at the moment since its such a reliable way to deal with phantoms.

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If the stinkin dock workers ever unload the boat they would be here now!

 

I am very much looking forward to the imperial huge ship and it's wonderful tie advanced with its upgrades. I have been flyin a tri-advanced list which has been fun.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Unions.......

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I agree that autothrusters will help move things away from the current trend of large ship with turrets, but ultimately they only really benefit A-Wings and TIE Interceptors in the existing ships and the Aggressor & Starviper for S&V.  Of those I think it will make PS1 A-wing Proton Rocket deliveries more reliable but suspect the IG-2000 duos will be the real winners there since the other ships with access to them simply won't be as likely to face the number of shots over a game before they're destroyed to really benefit from them; base AGI 3, 8 combined hull/shields, and built in arc-dodging should go a long ways towards maximizing their returns on that upgrade compared to a 3 hull interceptor that is still getting canned after one garbage roll at range 1 against the problem ships out there already.  

 

All that said, after an initial knee-jerk reaction to their presence, on any of the (eligible) small ships they realistically buy you roughly one additional turn of incoming fire from a tooled up YT-1300 or Decimator given their consistent damage output and that assumes that you're using an evade token.  Unfortunately, aside from shooting at range 3, autothrusters have no impact on phantoms shooting you, which in turn will make people fear phantoms again/more in their giant-killer builds, which once again drives them back towards large turreted ships with consistent damage output against phantoms (and everything else).  It's a vicious circle, but the autothrusters at least create some hope for a select few.  :unsure:

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I have been using lando with gunner and c3po and 4 head hunters and that has been working very well. I am thinking of changing it a little and bringing chewy with gunner, c3po, and squad leader with 4 head hunters. Pretty much the same list either way. I am working on a straight up headhunter swarm and a 3 tie defender list. thatdave has a pretty mean 3 tie advance list.

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I've been testing out Autothrusters with a Soontir, Whisper, Delta Squadron Defender list and have been enjoying them quite a bit! Definitely a better buy than Stealth Device at 2 points vs 3 and if I had the points to spare, using both of them with Royal Guard would be pretty amazing. Even in the current tournament meta without Autothrusters, I still feel that Phantom lists are plenty competitive, Decimator or no and well-flown TIE Swarms will always be a force to contend with. Options for competitive Rebels are more limited without a big ship, but I've heard positive reports on Farlander and friends laying down the hurt.

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I've seen a couple store-tournament reports recently that the A-wing proton rocket delivery system (I assume 5x prototype pilot with Proton Rocket) has won at least one event tearing up decimators/1300s/2400s in 1-2 rounds of shooting and mopping up the remains afterwards; a specific build to counter the popular trend of large, low-AGI turret ships, but potentially vulnerable to a surprise list otherwise.

 

I don't doubt that an aggressive swarm from either faction has the potential to get the job done, but in a timed tournament environment I feel a swarm carries a vulnerability to slow play (intentional or otherwise from both sides of the table) less present in most other builds and am hesitant to practice that option myself.  Plus I can't claim to be the fastest player out there and want to make sure I'm not responsible for undue delays whenever possible. That said, I think there should be some consideration for playing against a swarm in a tournament list much like you should have some plan/contingent for facing a phantom as well since they both create unique issues.

 

 

it doesnt matter which ships it benefits in the long run for the meta.  The fact that they can be played will mean people will not push the auto include button for turret ships.  Just the presence of the POSSIBILITY of having to face it, will change the meta.

I've read and reread Burk's statement here and the more I think about it the more I agree with it, so much of the online hype/discussion surrounding lists is contingent on perceived possibilities.  I hope it rings true in the near future.

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The first thing I'd like to point out is that fat Han with 3 bandits won Worlds, so a lot of its popularity is bandwagon building. Add to that, Dash and Decimators being the latest release, none of this is too surprising.

 

I think the "Panic Attack" build that placed well in Worlds is an under-used counter to these lists:

 

Gold Y w/ Ion turret, R3-A2

3 Blue Bs w/ E2/ Tacticians

 

Overloading fat YTs and phantoms with stress absolutely breaks their arc-dodging and action efficiency. I've never run it myself though as I don't own 3 phantoms to get all those tacticians...

 

As far as scum goes, I think there's more to look forward to than just autothrusters. They've got some really serious damage output ships that will put the fear of God into those expensive turreted ships.

 

For instance, N'Dru Suhlak with Lone Wolf and cluster missiles can put out up to 8 damage in one turn, for only 23 points! Palob Godalhi backed up with opportunist can cause all sorts of problems with few ship builds, and Torkil Mux really mucks up the plans of high PS ships (I'm looking at YOU, Whisper).

 

If nothing else, a lot of people will be switching to scum anyway, so you'll see fewer of those infamous builds as-is.

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I will play Scum probably more than I play rebels (spit)..... 

 

Mainly because I value maneuverability.  I love that style of play (and consequently, despise turrets ships, and outright hate turrets with Ion (double spit)).  With that said, I see some IG88 and starviper love with their new maneuvers.

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I don't feel wholly sold on the StarViper yet. The pilot abilities are meh, the ship is expensive, and the pilot skills are too low. I think a lot will come down to how powerful Segnor's Loop is in practice, but I feel like I'd rather fly an Aggressor any day for only a few more points or an HLC armed Scyk for a few less. I plan to buy the dumb ship anyway for Autothrusters so hopefully it proves me wrong, but I'm not optimistic.

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I played at the Store Tournament at Red Castle Games yesterday, had a good time and was pleasantly surprised to find only around 1/2 of the lists had a large turret ship without any looking like direct cookie-cutter lists of the popular net-builds; I actually lucked out and never played a large ship across the 3 games in the event, something that likely helped my final standings.  I ended up taking 4th out of 13 over 3 rounds, my 2nd round opponent (my loss) went on to win the event.  

 

I ran my 'Team Focus' list as shown below.  Definitely an oddball for the recent tournament meta, I will likely run something different for the Guardian Games store tournament in March if Scum is legal (Sweet scum-Boba action...).

  • Airen Cracken w/Swarm Tactics
  • Kyle Katarn w/Ion Cannon Turret and Jan Ors crew
  • Garven Dreis
  • Jake Farrell w/Chardaan Refit and Push the Limit

I think I had the only HWK-290 there, possibly the only named A-wing and definitely the only Garven Dreis.  The list has reasonable versatility/adaptability but lacks focused punch against overly hard targets with strong killing potential, but makes for an entertaining take-all-comers list, being able to shuffle focus tokens about and picking up some additional actions as a result, it definitely shines during the initial engagement where I'm able to hit a bit harder than it looks like I should while still having tokens where I need them on defense.  The mid-high PS across 4-ships was also a big plus.  

My only potential change would be removing the PtL from Jake to give a defensive astromech (R7 or R5-P9) to Garven (often the first to go down), but couldn't talk myself into it prior to leaving the house so I went with what I had and found I didn't use it (PtL) as often as I could have. When Calculation is legal I might drop PtL for that and autothrusters for Jake if I play the list more; between Kyle, Garven, and Airen I found he has a steady enough supply of focus tokens/actions to routinely use both of his reactionary boost/barrel-rolls into the mid-game turns.  

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26 players at Dice Age Games. ...

 

...Mentally exhausting, and 8 games later I wanted to just fall asleep......

 

Well, on the bright side it sounds like you did fairly well to stay in it for 8 games.  The RCG event was 11am-4pm, and stayed pretty much to that schedule.

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Good times. Double Phantom lists are fun, but like you said, exhausting to play. I'm trying to remember the double Phantom build that I've run in the past... I think it was VI/FCS/ACD Whisper/Echo and a Bomber with a Seismic and Cluster Missiles. We haven't had a good tourney up in Bellingham for a little while, but I imagine once Scum drops we'll put one together for people to try out their new toys.

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I don't feel wholly sold on the StarViper yet. The pilot abilities are meh, the ship is expensive, and the pilot skills are too low. I think a lot will come down to how powerful Segnor's Loop is in practice, but I feel like I'd rather fly an Aggressor any day for only a few more points or an HLC armed Scyk for a few less. I plan to buy the dumb ship anyway for Autothrusters so hopefully it proves me wrong, but I'm not optimistic.

I agree with this. PtL, Virago, adv sensors is a natural fit on Xizor but he won't be able to come to grips with higher PS arc-dodgers. Moreover, his ability encourages formation flying which kinda puts a leash on his potential mobility. Maybe VI and accuracy corrector will be the better combo for him as it puts him up into that delicious PS 9 while still maintaining some action economy.

 

Guri I like a little more because her role is a bit more defined. At PS 5, she's got no chance against arc-dodgers but with Calculat(ed? ing? or?...whichever) she'll be able to tear up generics with ease. Jump into range 1, pick up a free focus, then use it to throw a crit in. Still, for a dedicated generic ship hunter, she's a little expensive.

 

I don't think the generics will be used at all.

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I agree that Guri is probably the best bet, but her points start adding up quickly and I don't know if she'll be worth it, but we'll see. I think one problem I'm having is judging the value of the Scum ships based on the current factions while they will have their own intra-faction balance that I still have to come to grips with. I've been playing around with lists all day and aside from the obvious dual Aggressors, I don't really know what I'll want to play yet. Maybe..

 

45 - Boba Fett - VI, Inertial Dampeners, Engine Upgrade

40 - Guri - Predator, Virago, Autothrusters, Advanced Sensors, Inertial Dampeners

15 - Kaa'To Leeachos (Z-95 guy who steals Focus and Evade) 

 

I feel like I'm spending too much on Guri, but maybe it'll be worth it. I figure PS10 Boba can deal with Phantoms and the Z-95 will hopefully be annoying enough to draw some fire away from my harder to kill damage dealers.

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Right now, I'm liking:

 

49: Boba w/ VI, Navigator, Engine Upgrade, Dead man's switch

12: Binayre Pirate

12: Binayre Pirate

27: N'Dru Suhlak w/ Lone Wolf, Concussion missiles, hull upgrade, inertial dampeners

 

N'Dru flanks and double-taps someone with re-rolls on his concussions, Boba gets stuck in and goes out in a blaze of glory, Zs block and funnel.

 

Or:

 

34: Palob Godalhi w/ blaster turret, K4 security droid, opportunist, moldy crow

36: Kavil w/ blaster turret, opportunist, R4 agromech, bomb load out, seismic charge

15: Black sun soldier, dead man's switch

15: Black sun soldier, dead man's switch

 

This is mostly just a celebration of finally having usable blaster turrets. Palob pulls a green maneuver to grab a TL, steals a focus to fire the blaster and punishes the now unfocused ship with an opportunist 4 dice shot. If Kavil fires at a tokenless ship out of arc, his blaster turret throws out 5 TLed dice. Pretty brutal. The bomb and the 2 Zs encourage the opponent to split up where the turrets can chew up isolated targets.

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I like the second list best, but I'd probably swap out the Z-95s for a HLC Scyk with extra hull if I was running it. I know that if I was facing the list as presented, I would completely ignore the Z's and focus on the much more dangerous targets, whereas with a HLC on the field and every ship throwing 4+ dice per turn, I'd have some hard choices to make.

 

I feel like my opinion might change when it blows me up someday, but I'm not sold on the dead man's switch. I can't see any occasion where I'd want one over the amazing inertial dampeners and an extra point in my pocket.

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We're thoroughly derailing this thread, Kacy, but that's okay. I'm not sure I'm gonna like Scyks. At 23 points, one with an HLC hits hard but is fragile as hell. And with its dial not condusive to slow-rolling, I feel like it's gonna be hard to have more than one good pass with it before it's toast.

 

Not sure about dead man's switch either. It's such a completely new game mechanic that I don't know how it'll play out. But Zs have tight K-turns and aggressive green moves so it'll be easier to keep them in that range 1. If leveraged correctly, dead man's switch could force some really tough decisions on the enemy. Sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

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