deadwing34 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 I was just wondering if there are any official rules about "counts as" models while playing games at Ordo on Tuesdays or for that matter at the tournaments your run. Everything would be spelled out in your printed list, but would not be correctly represented on the table. For example would any of the following be ok/not ok at the clubhouse? 1. Sergeant is modeled with a power fist but you want to count it as a chain sword. 2. Using a Tactical SM Plasma Cannon as a counts as Multi-melta. 3. Using a Nephilim Jetfigher as a counts as Stormtalon. 4. Using a Dark Angels army as a counts as SM Army. Thank you for your consideration. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Just a technical point. 1. Sergeant is modeled with a power fist but you want to count it as a chain sword.2. Using a Tactical SM Plasma Cannon as a counts as Multi-melta. 3. Using a Nephilim Jetfigher as a counts as Stormtalon. 4. Using a Dark Angels army as a counts as SM Army. 1. Proxy. 2. Proxy 3. Proxy 4. Counts-as Proxying is when you are making no attempt to count something as something else, but are instead simply using another model to represent it. I know this is a fine point, but an important one to make. Counts-as has, as its base, consistency and common sense so that your opponent is not required to remember what is what, but can simply look at what is on the table and intuitively understand it. An example of the counts-as: 1. A sergeant using another CCW that doesn't have separate rules (i.e. a non-powered spear) as a chainsword. All non-powered spears in your army represent chainswords to avoid confusion. 2. A heavy weapons trooper with a converted lightning cannon that counts as a multi-melta. All converted lightning cannons in your army represent multi-meltas to avoid confusion. 3. A nephilim jetfighter converted to resemble the size and shape of a stormtalon but to have a distinct 'nephilim' appearance. All jetfighters in your army are represented by this conversion to avoid confusion. 4. Using a dark angels army as a codex SM army. All of the models are clearly modeled so that they can be identified as their SM equivalents (DV bikers as normal SM bikers, etc). 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil_bryan Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 We are pretty flexible at WOW. It really helps when you are testing things out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainA Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think most casual play, even at GG league night, procys and counts as are totally fine. Even if you wanted to use a cardboard box to try out that baneblade before you buy it I'd be fine with. At tournaments, its proper etiquette to get the model WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get), but most true "counts as" armies are fine. Mauz has a sweet canoptek necron army and I have a beastmen slaanesh army that are counts as. Like Pretre said, its is mostly about being able to understand what is what on teh tabletop. Nothing like going after a squad only to find out out that it does or does not have x equipment you thought it had because it was modelled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 I really should have answered the question, as well as going off on a tangent... Proxying is generally accepted in the short term at most local venues that aren't tournaments. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottshoemaker Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Ordo is especially open to counts as and proxying. We're all pretty realistic in the idea that we don't have unlimited funds and time to explore every avenue of possibilities. I'm a big fan of the post it note to avoid confusion. I'd say that once you've made some sort of long term conclusion about a proxy model the most courteous thing to do is go ahead and model it up and add it to your force. Minor things like weapon swaps can be easily sourced in the group. Bigger projects may require the effort of a new build. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Trainer Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 As stated, proxy is very common. Especially in the escalation league where the goal is to flush out a new force, rules, etc. Also as stated, our club is pretty casual. Most of our tournaments (with exceptions to larger formal events) are very casual and friendly gamer focused. It's about having fun and not stomping your buddy into the ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Just a technical point. 1. Proxy. 2. Proxy 3. Proxy 4. Counts-as Proxying is when you are making no attempt to count something as something else, but are instead simply using another model to represent it. I know this is a fine point, but an important one to make. Counts-as has, as its base, consistency and common sense so that your opponent is not required to remember what is what, but can simply look at what is on the table and intuitively understand it.. Hmmm...disagree, though could just be how I use the words is different. For me, "proxies" are models which are temporarily standing in for other models. "Counts as" are permanent replacements actual models. "Counts as" models are typically not close enough to the actual model or are otherwise distinguished enough from their intended model that I feel the need to explain to my opponent that they are counting as something. So, for examples: Making my own custom version of a special character, which is not the actual model, but looks enough like it to not create confusion, is not a "proxy," nor is it "counts as." For example, I take a TDA character with storm shield and thunder hammer and re-model the hammer to be larger and call it lysander (after imperial fists paint is applied, of course). This isn't a proxy or counts as, this is just modeling. Local event bans FW rules, but requires a fully painted army. The fully painted army I want to play includes FW models. I may proxy some of my FW models as non-FW models for the sake of this event. Likewise, my SM chapter may be one that has specific FW rules, but lacks GW rules. I may proxy the paint and chapter logos of my army as a different SM chapter, rather than re-painting the entire thing to change chapter tactics for this event. I build a Khorne army without any intention of ever using the Chaos rules. I've decided I like the space wolf rules better and I'm going to ignore every SW model in favor of Khorne World Eaters. This is a "counts as" army. I'm not temporarily replacing models, I fully intend to use a distinctly different model to represent each and every model in my army. As the OP regarding etiquette and the above, there isn't a hard set of rules on this. Ask yourself, is the proxy/counts as good enough where it doesn't impair your enjoyment of the game? If it doesn't impair it, there is no issue. That said, between proxies and counts as, there is huge room for modeling for advantage. I had an opponent which insisted that the tyranid pods could be any size because, at the time, GW lacked an official model. So they used a nickel, or rather, a model the size of a flat nickel. It didn't exactly take much time for that one to become clearly modeled for advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 paxmiles, on 30 Jan 2015 - 11:57 AM, said: Hmmm...disagree, though could just be how I use the words is different.The second one. For me, "proxies" are models which are temporarily standing in for other models. "Counts as" are permanent replacements actual models. "Counts as" models are typically not close enough to the actual model or are otherwise distinguished enough from their intended model that I feel the need to explain to my opponent that they are counting as something. Somewhat. Making my own custom version of a special character, which is not the actual model, but looks enough like it to not create confusion, is not a "proxy," nor is it "counts as." For example, I take a TDA character with storm shield and thunder hammer and re-model the hammer to be larger and call it lysander (after imperial fists paint is applied, of course). This isn't a proxy or counts as, this is just modeling. No, that's counts-as. He counts as Lysander because you're not using the Lysander model. Local event bans FW rules, but requires a fully painted army. The fully painted army I want to play includes FW models. I may proxy some of my FW models as non-FW models for the sake of this event. That is proxy... Likewise, my SM chapter may be one that has specific FW rules, but lacks GW rules. I may proxy the paint and chapter logos of my army as a different SM chapter, rather than re-painting the entire thing to change chapter tactics for this event. Paint job is irrelevant generally. This is counts-as. I build a Khorne army without any intention of ever using the Chaos rules. I've decided I like the space wolf rules better and I'm going to ignore every SW model in favor of Khorne World Eaters. This is a "counts as" army. I'm not temporarily replacing models, I fully intend to use a distinctly different model to represent each and every model in my army. Counts-as. That said, between proxies and counts as, there is huge room for modeling for advantage. I had an opponent which insisted that the tyranid pods could be any size because, at the time, GW lacked an official model. So they used a nickel, or rather, a model the size of a flat nickel. It didn't exactly take much time for that one to become clearly modeled for advantage. That's a dude being a dick and Modeling for Advantage. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadwing34 Posted February 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Cool so all I need to "proxy" or "counts as" a Eldar Revenant Titan is a nickle? Been dying to try one of those out on the table. But seriously thanks for clearing up what is allowed. I understand it would get confusing if someone is proxing some crazy model that looks nothing like the actual model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Cool so all I need to "proxy" or "counts as" a Eldar Revenant Titan is a nickle? Been dying to try one of those out on the table. But seriously thanks for clearing up what is allowed. I understand it would get confusing if someone is proxing some crazy model that looks nothing like the actual model. I would try for something at least close to the actual size of the Titan. edit: And my joke detector is off this morning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottshoemaker Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 I would try for something at least close to the actual size of the Titan. edit: And my joke detector is off this morning... I big stack of nickles would be OK though, about $400 worth ought to do it... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Instead of using the money to make an army use coins of different sizes to make an army....now that'd be super cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 No, that's counts-as. He counts as Lysander because you're not using the Lysander model. You really think that a custom Lysander (or other character) is "counts as"? How do conversions play into your "counts as" / "proxy" designations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 You really think that a custom Lysander (or other character) is "counts as"? How do conversions play into your "counts as" / "proxy" designations? Yes because your custom Lysander is not the actual model of Lysander and therefore counts as Lysander. Which is perfectly fine as long as you dont have 3 of those models in your army. Conversions would be counts as, becasue you are making an effort to get a model to look similar enough like another so that it's playable without immense confusion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 You really think that a custom Lysander (or other character) is "counts as"? How do conversions play into your "counts as" / "proxy" designations? Did you use a modified Lysander model? If yes, it is a conversion. If no, it is another model counting as Lysander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Did you use a modified Lysander model? If yes, it is a conversion. If no, it is another model counting as Lysander. How much of the original Lysander model would be required to be a conversion instead of counts as? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Also, how does this work for unit commanders? The Crusader squad, in example, does have metal/finecast Sword Brothers. Are those required for a model to truly be a Sword Brother? Would making a tactical squad Sergeant into a Sword Brother be some sort of conversion? Likewise, can I use the devastator marine kit to make tactical squad marines without conversion/counts as? They may include some of the same sprues/appearances, but you've established that a TDA marine with TH/SS is only able to be fielded as a counts as lysander, despite the similar weapons/gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 How much of the original Lysander model would be required to be a conversion instead of counts as? Any of it might be a good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Also, how does this work for unit commanders? The Crusader squad, in example, does have metal/finecast Sword Brothers. Are those required for a model to truly be a Sword Brother? Would making a tactical squad Sergeant into a Sword Brother be some sort of conversion? Likewise, can I use the devastator marine kit to make tactical squad marines without conversion/counts as? They may include some of the same sprues/appearances, but you've established that a TDA marine with TH/SS is only able to be fielded as a counts as lysander, despite the similar weapons/gear. Yes, as those are the sword brethren models. No, it would be counts-as. Yes, you can use devastator marines to make tac marines, but those are technically counts-as (no one would be able to tell though). I never established that a TDA marine with TH/SS is only able to be fielded as a counts-as lysander. I said that if you used a TH/SS marine to counts-as lysander, that would be counts-as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Counts-as is a good thing. It is what we use to be inventive. Otherwise, everyone's models would look the same. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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