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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

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a vast number of armies have a "glaring weakness" there.  Lol.  Seriously. 

 

A vast number of bad armies, perhaps. Lots of armies do just fine against Knights if you build and play them properly.

 

 

Centurionstar has just two answers, so there again, in the vastness of 40K, is it really fair to say that's a glaring weakness when almost every army shares it? Even a miscast isn't enough motivation to stop a Librarian from out throwing dice at you to get his invisibility off when needed.  So there's that.  By that measure nothing without a Culexus might be considered a glaringly weakened force.  And the second solution to Centurion stars (and the one I like the most) works for any army pretty much.

 

Again, not true. A Culexus (or other anti-psyker tech) is certainly one way to combat the army, but there are many others. As CaptainA can attest, even armies with zero psychic defenses at all can shred a Centurionstar list, and in fact that is the much more typical method. It's also possibly to simply win on objectives (something Centurions are bad at), but that's also something the list is middling for.

 

 

But Ill agree to an extent nonetheless.  If someone puts those things you mention up against fluger, his A game will be required.  Then again isn't that what you expect of someone who wants to actually win it all?  Probably.

 

"Just always play better than every opponent you face" is pretty terrible advice, because it presumes that A, you're a better player than everyone you meet; and B, your actual list irrelevant if you're good enough. Neither of those are true.

 

 

I kinda disagree with most of that.  

 

Knights?  Not only do I have 3 flyers that can all hurt knights, I have lots of melta as well.  I'm not saying it's insta win for these guys, but they have the tools.  

 

Centurion Star I'm less concerned about simply because of the Raptor CT for getting rending on each bolter shot.  Again, not instant win button or anything, but helps a lot.  

 

The real issue (IMO) with this list is the last part, it's super immobile and it is low in numbers.  Hard to get to grips with armies that can keep it at bay and still shoot it up.  Heck, on the flipside, it could easily get mulched by a melee focused army that can get to grips quickly.  

 

Again, I don't think this list is all that potent at all, just that I don't think those particular threats to it are all that extraordinary.  

 

Since you're not really "up" on the current tournament meta, lemme fill you in. Yes, you have three flyers that can hurt Knights- the Stormraven is fairly decent at that, as I mentioned, but it's Multimelta is forward-only and thus is going to have a lot of trouble firing at them consistently. It's certainly not a bad tool against them, but it won't be enough on its own. The Stormtalon and Fire Raptor are both excellent vehicles for their cost, but their guns are less than ideal for attacking Knights- you're needing 5s or 6s to do anything and they will suffer the same firing arc problems that the Stormraven does with many of their weapons. You also have some foot-based Melta in your list, but the Knights will easily be able to outmaneuver or destroy it because it's all on very vulnerable platforms. Your Dread comes in, gets one shot (which will have to contend with their Ion Shield) and then dies; the guys on foot will be getting bombed by pie plates and/or assaulted well before they can bring their guns to bear. (Yes, even with Infiltrate- you will not ever be able to get a first turn shot with the Meltaguns and the Knight can immediately move up and assault you if you come towards them.)

 

Rending on Bolters is nice, but you seem to be forgetting about Invisibility. You'll need 6s followed by 6s followed by allowing the other guy a cover save, which is not exactly a reliable way to hurt them. Meanwhile, the Grav Cannons are practically at their best against your army, because you have a lot of dudes on foot that are great targets for their guns.

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Fair enough.  I guess my point was simply that I wouldn't fear killing those things, the issue is being able to take it on the chin in return, which this list certainly can't.  

 

You do have ways to kill them, sure, but that's not relevant if those things aren't alive. The Knights will struggle heavily with the flyers, obviously, since they have very few ways to deal with them (basically they HAVE to bring allies), but those three flyers alone aren't enough to win you the game.

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A vast number of bad armies, perhaps. Lots of armies do just fine against Knights if you build and play them properly.

 

 

Again, not true. A Culexus (or other anti-psyker tech) is certainly one way to combat the army, but there are many others. As CaptainA can attest, even armies with zero psychic defenses at all can shred a Centurionstar list, and in fact that is the much more typical method. It's also possibly to simply win on objectives (something Centurions are bad at), but that's also something the list is middling for.

 

 

"Just always play better than every opponent you face" is pretty terrible advice, because it presumes that A, you're a better player than everyone you meet; and B, your actual list irrelevant if you're good enough. Neither of those are true.

 

Abusepuppy, i notice you argue with me just to argue.  

 

"Build them properly" is code for tailoring.  The list that ROFLstomps a Knight list is the same one that gets RPS ROFLstomped potentially by a "built properly" horde (if we are to beleive that lists matter most as you seem to advocate).  The list that isn't tailored DOESNT ROFL stomp a Knight army.  It just doesnt.  Its an up hill battle of skill.  

 

An all comers list is what the Highlander format more closely encourages and less of this ROFLstomping business.  And that's a good thing.  Do not tell me that building it "properly to beat Knights" isnt tailoring and once you go down that road, are your chances very good of winning it all?

 

You go on to say you disagreed with me, by agreeing with me.  Lol.  I said there were two good ways to beat the Centurion Star.  I SAID Culexus wasn't the one I tend to use.  You're right.  Good thing I never suggested it was the only answer.  Also:  Culexus is an answer.  And it's not the worst one either.  So whats the point of minimizing it anyways, which you do in this post?  Why not do BOTH if Psykers are a meta concern for you?  What are you even arguing with me on this other than to reinforce my point.  So thank you I guess?

 

Your last piece here about being better than those you play being "pretty bad advice"...  If you say so...?  I guess?  I am shocked you'd even suggest that but uh...  okay?  Not even sure what to say to that.  

 

So if I bring a worse list, one you find..suboptimal...  Are you suggesting I can't use my skill to beat you with it?  And if you say "Yes you could beat me with skill" then why are you suggesting Fluger can't and that telling him to bring his A game is bad advice????  He can as surely as I can.  He just has to bring his A game if the lists are a'kilter.  And when are they not a'kilter?  There is ALWAYS an advantage a list has over the opponent.  Short of mirror matches, one list is always "more powerful".  Its inevitable.  But the question then becomes one of skill over strength.  Have you simply lost all the games where the other list was "stronger".  if so, how unfortunate.  if not, you lost me on what point you're trying to make.

 

Hone your skill before you hone your lists, then hone the lists.  Value skill more.  It will serve you better, in my opinion, because you can TRULY learn to play a tool bag rather than an uber redundant but susceptible to matchup problems type tailored thing.  Play hard mode as often as possible so that no list imbalance will throw you to despair and no list imbalance will be extreme.  Your confidence in even the direst matchups will be tenfold higher and your clarity of mind will be excellent, the more of these games you win.  Might take a few lumps as you do so but it's to be expected.

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I think Abusepuppy, along with myself and others, don't debate with you (and other people) in these threads just to argue (although that can be fun too) but because, get this, we disagree with the points you (or they) are making. It is a discussion board, after all. If you're looking for the 'agree with everything I post' board, that's down the way a bit.

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"Build them properly" is code for tailoring.  The list that ROFLstomps a Knight list is the same one that gets RPS ROFLstomped potentially by a "built properly" horde (if we are to beleive that lists matter most as you seem to advocate).  The list that isn't tailored DOESNT ROFL stomp a Knight army.  It just doesnt.  Its an up hill battle of skill.  

No. Build them properly is code for Take All Comers. Few armies ROFLstomp a Knight list, but plenty of lists handle Knights. In fact, that is part of being a TAC list is being able to handle knights and handle horde. That being said, most TAC lists have a few gaps since there are so many types of lists nowadays.

 

 

 

An all comers list is what the Highlander format more closely encourages and less of this ROFLstomping business.  And that's a good thing.  Do not tell me that building it "properly to beat Knights" isnt tailoring and once you go down that road, are your chances very good of winning it all?

Highlander does nothing of the sort. Highlander is just another type of comp. Comp doesn't make people make balanced lists, it simply  changes the type of list that is the most powerful. Making a list that can handle knights is tailoring in only the most vague sort of way because AP isn't advocating making a list that can ONLY handle knights. He's advocating making a list that can handle most anything.

 

I'm not even going to touch your skill points though. 

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I think Abusepuppy, along with myself and others, don't debate with you (and other people) in these threads just to argue (although that can be fun too) but because, get this, we disagree with the points you (or they) are making. It is a discussion board, after all. If you're looking for the 'agree with everything I post' board, that's down the way a bit.

I think its pretty safe to say that characterizing this as being a search for that is a pretty far reach.  But thats cool.

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Highlander does nothing of the sort. Highlander is just another type of comp. C

 

 

I'm not even going to touch your skill points though. 

(**For those who don't know yet, pretre once beat me, early in 6E by a smidge.  Hot Sister on Sister action.  It allows him to suggest things.  That's cool.  I'll own that.  And next time we meet, correct it.  Rematches are fun, adds a little something don't you think?   :smile: **)

 

In any event, Highlander was in fact, actually and really designed to limit or curb abuse if not completely halt it.  Saying otherwise is disingenuous.  it was and is for that purpose.  That it isn't perfect is an entirely different discussion, but that was most definitely its intent.  Whatevs.

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That may have been the intention for Highlander, but the only abuse it curbs at all is spam, and it doesn't even do a very good job at curbing many forms of that. I can fit like 12 Dreads in a Highlander list, Points allowing. 4 Land Raiders? Go for it. There are something like 7 different kinds of Imperial Knight out there. It doesn't touch most DeathStar Units, which I honestly find to be more obnoxious than spammy lists.

 

What it does do is shut down a whole swathe of fluffy lists, because it's very difficult to get together any kind of coherent theme with no repetition. It also badly punishes Dexes that have fewer options for dealing with a specific problem, in favour of those who have a variety of Units for any given Role.

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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

Thanks guys for the feedback.

 

My goal was to start a conversation around knight lists and the theory behind a highlander list, not to get advice or anything.

 

 

I appreciate what feedback I did get. More would not be unwelcome.

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(**For those who don't know yet, pretre once beat me, early in 6E by a smidge. Hot Sister on Sister action. It allows him to suggest things. That's cool. I'll own that. And next time we meet, correct it. Rematches are fun, adds a little something don't you think? :smile: **)

I wasn't actually referring to that. I was saying I was avoiding the 'skill trumps all' discussion.

 

In any event, Highlander was in fact, actually and really designed to limit or curb abuse if not completely halt it. Saying otherwise is disingenuous. it was and is for that purpose. That it isn't perfect is an entirely different discussion, but that was most definitely its intent. Whatevs.

Westrider covers this far more eloquently than I. Comp is always intended to curb abuse and yet often just curbs some abuse and creates all new categories.
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That may have been the intention for Highlander, but the only abuse it curbs at all is spam, and it doesn't even do a very good job at curbing many forms of that. I can fit like 12 Dreads in a Highlander list, Points allowing. 4 Land Raiders? Go for it. There are something like 7 different kinds of Imperial Knight out there. It doesn't touch most DeathStar Units, which I honestly find to be more obnoxious than spammy lists.

 

What it does do is shut down a whole swathe of fluffy lists, because it's very difficult to get together any kind of coherent theme with no repetition. It also badly punishes Dexes that have fewer options for dealing with a specific problem, in favour of those who have a variety of Units for any given Role.

As i said:

 

That it isn't perfect is an entirely different discussion, but that was most definitely its intent.  

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I see highlander more as a wacky list method to eliminate tedium than a successful comp idea. For me it is the same as doubles, trading armies, recycling units to your opponent, king of the hill, etc. Towards that end, it's interesting. I'd probably play in an event but it's not really my cup of tea.

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Your last piece here about being better than those you play being "pretty bad advice"...  If you say so...?  I guess?  I am shocked you'd even suggest that but uh...  okay?  Not even sure what to say to that.  

 

So if I bring a worse list, one you find..suboptimal...  Are you suggesting I can't use my skill to beat you with it?

 

I'm saying that working from the assumption that you are better than every single other player you will face is a poor strategy, and making your list reliant on playing better than everyone you face is also poor strategy. Unless you are the best Warhammer player in the world, some people are going to be better than you. Or you might screw up and misplay, because that is a thing that happens as well- people get tired, people make mistakes. If your basic assumption is "I will be able to counter every move my opponent makes because I am just that good," you really don't have any margin of error and, in fact, are being kind of arrogant.

 

I'm not saying being a better player isn't helpful. By all means, you want to be good at the game- good players win more often, it turns out. But good players also recognize that many other factors (list, matchup, terrain, dice) are a part of the game and you have to be in a position to affect all of them as much as you can rather than simply taking as gospel the idea that you are the best player around.

 

 

 It will serve you better, in my opinion, because you can TRULY learn to play a tool bag rather than an uber redundant but susceptible to matchup problems type tailored thing.

Part of writing a good list is mitigating issues with matchups as much as possible. It seems rather odd you don't recognize that. It's also kinda hilarious, because the lists you post here inevitably have severe issues with certain matchups that you summarily dismiss with the "I'll just play better than them" idea.

 

 

This is what I am thinking for 1850 sm highlander list:

*deletia*

Feedback most welcome.

 

I think it has the issue that a lot of Highlander lists will, namely that it lacks a strong focus. You've got a Knight and a unit of Bikes moving forward, and then you've also got some squads kinda sittin' around the backfield, and also some flyers, and it just doesn't feel very coherent. It's not terrible or anything, but it'll struggle with the more dedicated armies that have a focused purpose.

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This is what I am thinking for 1850 sm highlander list:

+++ Highlander marines (1848pts) +++

 

++ Space Marines: Codex (2013) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1473pts) ++

 

+ HQ (255pts) +

 

Chapter Master (255pts) [Artificer Armor, Auspex, Bike, The Shield Eternal, Thunder Hammer]

 

+ Troops (533pts) +

 

Bike Squad (268pts) [2x Grav-gun, 7x Space Marine Biker]

····Attack Bike [Heavy Bolter]

····Biker Sergeant [biker Veteran Sgt, Power Weapon]

 

Scout Squad (105pts) [4x Combat Blade, 4x Scouts]

····Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer]

····Scout Sergeant [Melta Bombs]

 

Tactical Squad (160pts) [Flamer, Missile Launcher, 9x Space Marine]

····Space Marine Sergeant [bolt pistol, Chainsword]

 

+ Fast Attack (125pts) +

 

Stormtalon Gunship (125pts) [skyhammer Missile Launcher]

 

+ Heavy Support (560pts) +

 

Devastator Squad (205pts) [4x Missile Launcher, 4x Space Marine]

····Razorback [Twin-Linked Assault Cannon]

····Space Marine Sergeant [bolt pistol, Bolter]

 

Stormraven Gunship (255pts) [Hurricane Bolters, Twin Linked Assault Cannons, Typhoon Missile Launcher]

 

Thunderfire Cannon (100pts)

 

++ Imperial Knights: Codex (2014) v2 (Imperial Knight Detachment) (375pts) ++

 

+ Knights (375pts) +

 

Knight Paladin (375pts)

 

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

 

Feedback most welcome.

 

I feel like a Drop pod to bring the Space marines up with the Storm could be more useful than the Razorback.  if you want a bit more firepower, add the Missile Launcher to the Drop pod.  thats always an unpleasant surprise for enemies and is far more likely to help you early on with clearing threats TO the marines and i guess now that it counts as having moved at Combat Speed, it would be a pretty cool alternative.  the Assault Cannon may not even get a shot off in round one and in round two its such a good first blood target...

That also helps also because the Storm Raven will like the Saturation when it comes in with the Storm Talon. 

 

The ThunderFire Cannon is awesome.  Can you peel a couple bikes off or something to give you a Comms Relay?  That Chapter Master is beefy and can protect the unit pretty well so losing a bike or two in the name of even better saturation would be useful.  You dont want to leave it up to chance with that many points coming on the board later.  You want them hen you want them.  I think your concept is to have the Tactical Marines aboard it but if you split them out into a pod, there is less to lose to nasty anti-air and interceptor fire like Tau have  I'd rather take a few hits o nthe boys than lose the entire thing to a crash.  maybe they can get in later and use it to gank objectives if it comes ot it.

 

If nothing else, the opponent will help you decide whether you pod or you go by plane.  The option either way would be very nice though, as on round TWO the charging Tac's could be there when needed instead of waiting til three.  That could end up being important against some (not all) people you face).

 

that one little change feels like a good one.  just thinking out loud here.

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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

Thanks. so dropping say two bikes for com relay now means I always have one unit of bikes versus an option of two. That seems like a hard sacrifice. Dropping razor and giving aegis line with cimm would work.

 

I agree the razor just doesn't seem to add anything.

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