March 21 40K TOURNAMENT RESULTS!!! (Pg 3)

[Lord Hanaur]

WHERE:

Forever Knight Games

Capital Mall in Olympia

625 Black Lake Boulevard, Olympia WA 98502

CALL (360) 357-5000 to PRE-REGISTER

 

WHEN:

March 21, 2015  PRE-REGISTERING IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.  Space is limited.

See the schedule Below

 

Facebook page:  https://www.facebook.com/events/1063216027038247/?pnref=story

 

WHAT:

1850 Point Battle Forged Warhammer 40,000 Lists

You may bring a Battle Forged army with Two Detachments of any kind, or up to Three Detachments as long as one of the Detachments is a Combined Arms Detachment.  Keep in mind that Allied Detachments cannot be from the same Faction, as defined on page 126.  All units must be clearly marked on your army list under the Detachment they belong to.

 

All of this is subject to the rules below.

 

MASSIVE PRIZE SUPPORT WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR THIS TOURNAMENT THANKS TO FOREVER KNIGHT GAMES!    Read on for how you can win them

 

WHY:

 

To give away BIG chunks of prizes and tune up for the upcoming bigger tournaments.

 

WHO:

 

You and every friend you can muster or tell about this event.  Find a friend and bring them. It’s silly not to travel in packs and it's just flat unsafe. More is better.

 

There are a few things that are bound to need attention so let me start right off:

 

A. $15 per person. 

 

1. We are not using Stronghold Assault rules, nor Escalation rules for this particular event except as follows. We will be using 7th Edition.  No fortifications can be used EXCEPT the following:  Aegis Defense Line (may upgrade with Gun or relay), the Imperial Bastion( may be upgraded to include a gun or Relay) and the Vengeance Weapons Battery (no additional upgrades).

 

2. You can use any official Codex and/or Codex Supplement that you can provide rules for to your opponent before, during, and after the game. If you do not own the rules, you cannot use them.

 

3. Forge World RULES will not be used. Forge World Models can be used as appropriate proxies so long as they require no extensive explanation to your opponent and are more or less the correct dimensions.

 

4. When “time” is called, if the current round is not complete, you will return to the previous rounds victory condition total to see who won. You must complete the entire rounds events for the round to count. Rounds are over when the judge tells you they are over. If your clock contradicts that of the judge, the judges clock will be the one we use.

 

5. SLOW PLAYING WILL NEVER BE OKAY. For those unfamiliar with that term, it means that you intentionally slow down the game in order to avoid losing. Certain armies are like thundering hammer blows in the early going, but they take it in the shorts later on. Tau are a good example of an army that can be up by 6 KP’s before they start losing things...but they lose them pretty rapidly later. So if a Tau Empire player was hemming and hawing and generally going slow to avoid the loss, I would have no compunction about issuing a warning or even a Victory Point Penalty or simply exclude you from prize consideration. So, your best bet if time is running down and there may or may not be enough time to finish another round is not to sit around discussing it. Just mark what the current Victory condition totals are and play on. Then if the next round truly cannot be completed in GOOD FAITH, then you return to that previous completed rounds score as your final one. This is to ENCOURAGE people to play, not DISCOURAGE. We're not handing out solid gold statues, so play to have fun.

 

Prizes in General:

We will be raffling prizes. If you win Best Sportsman, you receive two extra entries. If you win Best General, you get Two extra. If you win Best Painted as judged BY THE PLAYERS, not the judges, you get two extra entry's.

 

Prizes will be pooled from the number of players present. If you tell EVERYONE, Facebook EVERYONE and generally don’t procrastinate nor let up in your recruiting of players for the event; and don’t let any bias get in the way of having a good time, then we should have more fun (see golden rule aforementioned).

 

6. Bring 5 copies of your army list, your main rule book, Codex FAQ, Templates, Dice, objective Markers etc... so others don't have to loan you theirs. Pro tip: letting people borrow them is however good sportsmanship. =)

 

Painting Requirement:

Your army must meet the three color minimum (base color, trim, and weapon painted at least).  We will not judge paint with a rubric, as it will be player voted.

 

Each player will inspect the armies during our lunch break and name their favorite. Most votes wins. Tie goes to the person with the least number of wins. Makes it worth painting no matter whether you win or lose, don’t you think?

 

Other Stuff:

Make your life easy: bring a display board. So much easier to move armies about and display them and people like them. A plank or even a McDonald Tray is better than loading and unloading from a bag. Just a suggestion, not a requirement.

 

QUESTIONS:

 

We ALL forget rules! There are a LOT of codex’s with many rules interactions and then there are FAQ’s that create another layer of possible discussion. In addition, the parallax effect can make us see things differently from one another on blasts or Template weapons and so on. Talk about it for a minute, look it up (The index works great) and if you cannot agree (and it happens), dice it off so you don’t get into a slow play situation. But if you feel like it is imperative to the outcome of the game, or maybe neither one of you feels sure ENOUGH to make a call on it either way, then call for a judge. Rulings are final until the tourney is over and will be the best attempt at correctitude we can make at the time. Sadly, we’re wrong sometimes. But if a decision HAS to be made by a third party, we’ll make it. Better that you ask before the tourney (see the schedule?) or you and your opponent settle it to continue having fun.

 

SCHEDULE

 

11:00 Registration. Pay up folks.

 

11:15 Announcements and repeating one self for those who didn’t bother to read this. Go over oddball FAQ questions, preferably with a focus on being cool to one another. Occam s Razor is the rule.

 

11:30 to 1:45 Round 1

 

1:45 Set your army up for inspection and voting. You never know!

 

1:45-2:00 Voting on Paint.

 

2:00 to 2:30 Lunch

 

2:30 Matchups announced, shuffling of armies

 

2:45 to 5:00: Round 2!

 

5:15 Matchups announced, shuffling of Armies begins, FOOD BREAK

 

5:45 to 8:00 SPEED ROUND 3, Cause Champions go fast.

 

8:15 Prizes announced and Forum fills with joyous “what a great time I had” accolades,

 

8:30 After tourney Gaming to include...well any game you want. Cause it’s your time. Flames of War, War Machine, Warhammer...you name it, they have it at Forever Knight Games.

 

 

Missions

BAO Scenario 1

Step 1. Adjust and define terrain with your opponent. There should be a roughly symmetrical distribution of terrain on the table.

Step 2. Roll for Psychic Powers/Gifts/etc.

Step 3. Roll for deployment zones. DAWN OF WAR DEPLOYMENT

Step 4. Place Fortifications. No Fortification may be placed closer than 4″ to any table edge or another piece of terrain. Adjust terrain to fit any large Fortifications or remove the terrain piece if it becomes impossible to place the Fortification. Please note that the Aegis is an exception to the above rule and may be placed closer than 4″ to a table edge or another piece of terrain.

Step 5. Place Objectives using normal objective placement rules as modified below.  

Each player places 1 Emperor's Will objective in their own deployment zone.

Each player places 1 Maelstrom objective more than 18" away from their own deployment edge, these should be numbered 1 and 2.

Step 6. Roll for Warlord trait per usual in the BRB Pg. 124. Do not use the Tactical Traits table.

Step 7. Roll for Night Fighting. 

Step 8. Roll for first turn. The player that wins the roll can choose to go first or second. The player going first then deploys first and goes first unless the other player seizes the initiative.

Primary Mission: Modified Emperor's Will: 4 Mission Points if achieved, 0 pts if lost or tied.

Secondary Mission: Modified Maelstrom: 3 Mission Points if achieved, 0 pts if lost or tied. At the beginning of each GAME TURN, both players roll twice on this table. Reroll the second roll if it is the same number as the first. Note the result below. At the end of each GAME TURN, each player earns 1 pt per Maelstrom Mission achieved (Note, if you roll both Destroy an Enemy Unit objectives, destroying 1 unit earns you 1pt, destroying 2 units earns you 2pts). The player with the most points at the end of the game wins this mission.

1:  Hold Maelstrom Objective 1

2:  Hold Maelstrom Objective 2

3:  Have a scoring unit at least partially within the enemy deployment zone.

4:  Destroy an Enemy Unit

5:  Destroy an Enemy Unit

6:  Have at least 3 of your and none of your opponent's scoring units in your deployment zone.

Bonus Points: 1 Mission Point each: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord.

 

BAO Scenario 2

Step 1. Adjust and define terrain with your opponent. There should be a roughly symmetrical distribution of terrain on the table.

Step 2. Roll for Psychic Powers/Gifts/etc.

Step 3. Roll for deployment zones. VANGUARD STRIKE DEPLOYMENT

Step 4. Place Fortifications. No Fortification may be placed closer than 4″ to any table edge or another piece of terrain. Adjust terrain to fit any large Fortifications or remove the terrain piece if it becomes impossible to place the Fortification. Please note that the Aegis is an exception to the above rule and may be placed closer than 4″ to a table edge or another piece of terrain.

Step 5. Place Objectives using normal objective placement rules as modified below.  

A Maelstrom Objective is placed in the center of the table, numbered 1.

Each player places 1 Maelstrom Objective in their opponent's deployment zone, these should be numbered 2 and 3.

Step 6. Roll for Warlord trait per usual in the BRB Pg. 124. Do not use the Tactical Traits table.

Step 7. Roll for Night Fighting. 

Step 8. Roll for first turn. The player that wins the roll can choose to go first or second. The player going first then deploys first and goes first unless the other player seizes the initiative.

Primary Mission: Purge the Alien: 4 Mission Points if achieved, 0 pts if lost or tied.

Secondary Mission: Modified Maelstrom: 3 Mission Points if achieved, 0 pts if lost or tied. At the beginning of each GAME TURN, both players roll twice on this table. Reroll the second roll if it is the same number as the first. Note the result below. At the end of each GAME TURN, each player earns 1 pt per Maelstrom Mission achieved. The player with the most points at the end of the game wins this mission.

1:  Hold Objective 1

2:  Hold Objective 2

3:  Hold Objective 3

4:  Have more scoring units at least partially further than 12" from your deployment table edge than your opponent.

5:  Have a scoring unit at least partially within 12" of opponent's deployment edge.

6:  Have 3 of your own and no enemy scoring units at least partially within 12" of your deployment edge.

 

Bonus Points: 1 Mission Point each: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord.

 

BAO Scenario 6

Step 1. Adjust and define terrain with your opponent. There should be a roughly symmetrical distribution of terrain on the table.

Step 2. Roll for Psychic Powers/Gifts/etc.

Step 3. Roll for deployment zones. DAWN OF WAR DEPLOYMENT

Step 4. Place Fortifications. No Fortification may be placed closer than 4″ to any table edge or another piece of terrain. Adjust terrain to fit any large Fortifications or remove the terrain piece if it becomes impossible to place the Fortification. Please note that the Aegis is an exception to the above rule and may be placed closer than 4″ to a table edge or another piece of terrain.

Step 5. Place Objectives using normal objective placement rules as modified below. 

Each player places their Maelstrom Objective number 1 in their own deployment zone, and their number 2 Maelstrom Objective more than 18" away from their own back deployment edge.

These objectives are also the Crusade Objectives.

Step 6. Roll for Warlord trait per usual in the BRB Pg. 124. Do not use the Tactical Traits table.

Step 7. Roll for Night Fighting. 

Step 8. Roll for first turn. The player that wins the roll can choose to go first or second. The player going first then deploys first and goes first unless the other player seizes the initiative.

Primary Mission: Crusade: 4 Mission Points if achieved, 0 pts if lost or tied. 

Secondary Mission: Modified Maelstrom: 3 Mission Points if achieved, 0 pts if lost or tied. At the beginning of each GAME TURN, both players roll twice on this table. Reroll the second roll if it is the same number as the first. Note the result below. At the end of each GAME TURN, each player earns 1 pt per Maelstrom Mission achieved (Note, if you roll both Destroy an Enemy Unit objectives, destroying 1 unit earns you 1pt, destroying 2 units earns you 2pts). The player with the most points at the end of the game wins this mission.

1:  Hold Either Objective 1

2:  Hold Either Objective 2

3:  Destroy an enemy unit.

4:  Destroy an enemy unit.

5:  Have a scoring unit at least partially within the enemy deployment zone.

6:  Have at least 3 of your scoring units and no enemy scoring units at least partially within your own deployment zone.

 

Bonus Points: 1 Mission Point each: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord.

[s6nculve]

What are the guidelines for proxying models, if proxies are even allowed?

[Lord Hanaur]

What are the guidelines for proxying models, if proxies are even allowed?

What specifically are you hoping to have allowed?

[s6nculve]

What specifically are you hoping to have allowed?

 

Well I was hoping for general guidelines. Specifically I'm talking about Necrons and Annihilation Barges being proxied as Catacomb Command Barges (or vice versa); The C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer/Deceiver being proxied as a Transcendent C'Tan (or vice versa); Destroyers being proxied as Heavy Destroyers (or vice versa); Doom Scythes being proxied as Night Scythes (or vice versa); Overlords being proxied as Anrakyr the Traveller, Imotekh the Stormlord, Nemesor Zahdrekh, Trazyn the Infinite or Vargard Obyron (or vice versa). I may not proxy at all, though I'd like to know in case I do decide to.

[pretre]

That's a lot of proxy...

[s6nculve]

That's a lot of proxy...

 

I'm not talking about proxing all of those models, those are examples. I simply want to know what are the proxy guidelines are, if any. :)

[pretre]

Let's put it this way. Proxying is generally a short term solution for one or two models until you buy/convert/model the appropriate model. Your request seems a bit more expansive.

[s6nculve]

I am asking for myself and others. I do understand that proxying is a temporary solution, if I don't have the correct model. I have no intension of proxying an entire army. I own almost every Necron model. Though there are a few a I don't own. Again, the list I provided was an answer to Lord Hanaur's question of what specific units would I possibly proxy. It was not an army list of proxies. I'm asking if Proxying is allowed, and if so, what are the guidelines. I listed similarly shaped models, as an example, to ask if 'similarly shaped models' is the guideline. As another example, I don't own any Heavy Destroyers cause I'm not willing to pay extra money for the same model, with a slightly longer weapon. I normally place a token next to my 'Heavy Destroyers,' to mark them as such; is this acceptable? I don't want to show and be told something I proxied is unacceptable, if I do even decide to proxy. :)

[Lord Hanaur]

Well I was hoping for general guidelines. Specifically I'm talking about Necrons and Annihilation Barges being proxied as Catacomb Command Barges (or vice versa); The C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer/Deceiver being proxied as a Transcendent C'Tan (or vice versa); Destroyers being proxied as Heavy Destroyers (or vice versa); Doom Scythes being proxied as Night Scythes (or vice versa); Overlords being proxied as Anrakyr the Traveller, Imotekh the Stormlord, Nemesor Zahdrekh, Trazyn the Infinite or Vargard Obyron (or vice versa). I may not proxy at all, though I'd like to know in case I do decide to.

I probably wouldnt be okay with the Transcendent C'Tan being proxied.  That is just a REALLY specific model and while I would absolutely not blink about it in casual games, it's asking a lot during a tournament which is meant to be a bit more of a competitive arena.   Those who legitimately paid to have one deserve to play with one, but...

 

The Destroyers as heavy destroyers could be done with a magnet.  So could the annihilation barges.  I am fine with the Overlord as Anrakyr as long as your opponent knows who he is.  HQ's can be pretty scratchbuilt. 

 

I get playing on a budget, but I just would like to say that part of the fun for the OPPONENT and part of the point of a tournament is always getting to imagine their army ACTUALLY battling your army and it does distract from that fun a bit if you have half a dozen major list components "counts as".  The opponent may forget what you said earlier in the game and space off that something is a Command Barge and not an annihilation Barge, etc...  Conversions are one thing, and modelling choices are one thing, but i really think some magnets would solve a ton of problems here.  An Obelisk with a Transcendent C'Tan atop it?  thats fine.  Ill buy that as a tesseract Vault.  But a Borg Cube as an Obelisk?  It's cooool but...

 

My encouragement would be to maybe see what you can do with a little magnet magic.

[s6nculve]

Okay, thank you for the feedback. :)

[Lord Hanaur]

Missions are posted!  Facebook page is also up

[s6nculve]

I have a question about how Lance and Quantum Shielding interact with each other. This is my point:


Modifiers- "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, ect.), subtracting from it (-1, -2, ect.), multiplying it (x2, x3, ect.) or even setting its value (1, 8, ect.)."

Multiple Modifiers- "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

Lance- "count Vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

Quantum Shielding- "counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."

Basic Versus Advance- "a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."


Both Lance and Quantum Shielding are modifiers that set a characteristic value (Armour Value). Since they are both the same type of modifier and happen at the same time, on the same 'layer,' they are conflicting with no clear outcome. Since they are conflicting, Basic Versus Advance comes into play. Lance is basic, while Quantum Shielding is advanced. How will this interaction be handled in the tournament?

[Lord Hanaur]

Interesting.  I think the general concensus is that the Codex defines the Armor Value for the Quantum shielded vehicle as 13 and thus it is 13.  I think the key is that the armor has to BE something before any weapon hits it.  So before any weapon hits it, it's a 13.

 

The Lance then TREATS that 13 as a 12.

 

So the Codex is right:  it is 13 before any weapon is fired at it.

 

The Lance is right:  it treats 13 as 12.

[s6nculve]

Interesting.  I think the general concensus is that the Codex defines the Armor Value for the Quantum shielded vehicle as 13 and thus it is 13.  I think the key is that the armor has to BE something before any weapon hits it.  So before any weapon hits it, it's a 13.

 

The Lance then TREATS that 13 as a 12.

 

So the Codex is right:  it is 13 before any weapon is fired at it.

 

The Lance is right:  it treats 13 as 12.

 

 

Is that an official ruling for the tournament? To clarify, Modifiers identify QS & Lance as modifiers that set values. Multiple Modifiers says they happen at the same time. Basic Versus Advance says they conflict, so QS overrules Lance. No other rules apply, specifically when talking about when they 'see' each other and timing, unless someone can quote something to the contrary. I don't really care how it's ruled. I know how it is ruled RAW. If it's ruled differently by the TO(s) for RAI or for 'balance,' I'm okay with that. I simply want to know how it will be handled for this tournament.

[Lord Hanaur]

That is official.  I apologize, i should have said so.

[s6nculve]

That is official.  I apologize, i should have said so.

 

Okay, thanks. :)

[s6nculve]

So, Sequencing was pointed out to me. I totally forgot about it. My bad. Everything I had said before is true, though Sequencing says the active player chooses the order. So QS can ignore Lance, though only on the controlling player's turn (Overwatch). Extremely limited. The more you know. lol

[pretre]

Sequencing doesn't apply in this case.

[s6nculve]

RAW, it does. We already have the ruling, so it doesn't really matter. I don't really want to disscuss this here. lol

[Lord Hanaur]

Pretre is right though.  

 

Just to be clear, the prerequisite for the Quantum Shielding is met before a single dice is rolled:  No penetrating hits have occurred.  It is Continuously AV 13 until that happens.  therefore there is no issue with Sequencing.  No matter who goes first, the prerequisite has been met.

 

In order for sequencing to matter, you'd have to argue that the armor isn't AV 13 on the opponents turn which is of course absurd.  That it is my turn does not allow me to use the Lance against AV 11, just because my Lance rules (which include its STR) get applied before your AV 13 does.  You can see the difficulty there.  =)

 

Frankly Sequencing is just a tie breaker when something clearly could go either way but I don't think that is happening in this case.

 

So for all those reasons, for this tournament, we are applying Occam's Razor.  In other tournaments i suppose you'll need to ask a TO on it again but i think you will find that for the most part, they will all feel similarly.  but maybe not!  It's not as if everyone agrees with me.  Not even Pretre.

[pretre]

I am in complete agreement with Hanaur on this point.

[Lord Hanaur]

Another question came up:

Does the following formation come in automatically turn one if their is no other drop pod in the list?  
Rules of the formation::
Wolf Guard Thunderstrike: 1 unit of 10 Wolfguard in a Drop Pod, and 1 unit of Terminators with all of the supplement special rules (Kingsguard, Sagaborn, First Among Equals). All units in the Formation must deepstrike, and, they all come in on a single roll.

 

Well the issue is that the Drop Pod comes in WITH the Terminators in this Formation. And since the Terminators cannot Deepstrike turn one, the Drop pod has to wait with them. So that is the ruling for this tournament.

[Lord Hanaur]

 

 

Im stealing this.

[s6nculve]

I guess we can discuss Lance versus Quantum Shielding, though not here. If you like, I am willing to start a thread in the rules discussion section? Just to be clear though, I am talking about RAW; I am not talking about RAI, balance, fluff, opinions, ect. I only post and accept quotes from a source of rules. I have recently changed my opinion based on someone's quote, from the rulebook, so maybe I am missing something else with regards to the subject. I understand some wording is open to interpretation within the rulebook, in general , so such wording will be disregarded. At least by me. If it can go either way, it's not RAW. So if we start a discussion on this subject, please only post quote and talk about your point in relation to the quote. Is that acceptible?

[s6nculve]

Another question came up:

Does the following formation come in automatically turn one if their is no other drop pod in the list?  

Rules of the formation::

Wolf Guard Thunderstrike: 1 unit of 10 Wolfguard in a Drop Pod, and 1 unit of Terminators with all of the supplement special rules (Kingsguard, Sagaborn, First Among Equals). All units in the Formation must deepstrike, and, they all come in on a single roll.

 

Well the issue is that the Drop Pod comes in WITH the Terminators in this Formation. And since the Terminators cannot Deepstrike turn one, the Drop pod has to wait with them. So that is the ruling for this tournament.

 

Is this the exact wording? lol