What's Still Left That Needs 2-Detachment Limits?

[VonVilkee]

Yes they have always worked closely with the inquisition. The witch hunters book never said sisters were part of the inquisition just that they worked very closely. News flash all of the imperium works closely with the inquisition.

 

I feel inquisition should be kept separate as there are three ordos and the mess that happened between deamon hunters and witch hunters. All Inquisitors should be kept together and then it isn't good for others to tack them into a book. Current ally rules makes inquisition best as it is.

 

While I would agree it works it did not work well. What we have now is much better.

[pretre]

 

 So it was a whopping ONE YEAR or so that they were not Witch Hunters, basically and a little longer if you want to stretch it to include the White Dwarf stuff!  

Math is hard? 1997 to 2003 is 6 years they were not Witch Hunters. There was 2nd edition, 3rd Edition Black Book and 3rd edition White Dwarf (compiled in 2002 Chapter Approved) during that time. Then there's the 4 or 5 years post C:WH. So 10 years of the last 18 not Inquisition.

 

 

The 2nd Edition Sisters weren't even a stand alone army.  They were supplementary to a Space Marine army!

That's provably false. They had their own Codex and were their own army.

 

 

Oh and since it was mentioned, the 3rd Edition Chapter Approved didn't have any Sisters of Battle in it that I remember and it's nowhere I can find reference to it.  So I'm not sure what that reference is to.  maybe you can scan it and show me what you're talking about there.

You are, again, incorrect. Chapter Approved 2002

http://www.scribd.com/doc/54418386/Warhammer-40k-Codex-Chapter-Approved-2002#scribd

A little google goes a long ways.

 

 

So for all those reasons I don't get how this is not then a sensible thing to return to?  Witch Hunters for all intents and purposes was the realized version that came from the original "supplementary" force they were before Witch Hunters.  Then Matt Ward got involved.  God bless Matt Ward for his part in the White Dwarf rewrite with Cruddacce....

Witch Hunters were a small chunk of their history. One book. Every other book has made them not part of the inquisition. 10 of the last 18 years they have not been part of the inquisition.

 

 

What could make more since than an INQUISITION and the Church?  Lol.

Except the Inquisition is secular in the Imperium.

[Prophecy]

Well seeing as everyone seems to own sisters who wants to sell me some meltaguns and heavy flamers?

[pretre]

Well seeing as everyone seems to own sisters who wants to sell me some meltaguns and heavy flamers?

I just bought 4 HF and a Meltagun for the golden ticket. :)

[Lord Hanaur]

 

 

Math is hard? 1997 to 2003 is 6 years they were not Witch Hunters. There was 2nd edition, 3rd Edition Black Book and 3rd edition White Dwarf (compiled in 2002 Chapter Approved) during that time. Then there's the 4 or 5 years post C:WH. So 10 years of the last 18 not Inquisition.

 

 

That's provably false. They had their own Codex and were their own army.

 

 

You are, again, incorrect. Chapter Approved 2002

http://www.scribd.com/doc/54418386/Warhammer-40k-Codex-Chapter-Approved-2002#scribd

A little google goes a long ways.

 

 

Witch Hunters were a small chunk of their history. One book. Every other book has made them not part of the inquisition. 10 of the last 18 years they have not been part of the inquisition.

 

 

Except the Inquisition is secular in the Imperium.

 

 

 

 

Math is hard? 1997 to 2003 is 6 years they were not Witch Hunters. There was 2nd edition, 3rd Edition Black Book and 3rd edition White Dwarf (compiled in 2002 Chapter Approved) during that time. Then there's the 4 or 5 years post C:WH. So 10 years of the last 18 not Inquisition.

 

 

That's provably false. They had their own Codex and were their own army.

 

 

You are, again, incorrect. Chapter Approved 2002

http://www.scribd.com/doc/54418386/Warhammer-40k-Codex-Chapter-Approved-2002#scribd

A little google goes a long ways.

 

 

Witch Hunters were a small chunk of their history. One book. Every other book has made them not part of the inquisition. 10 of the last 18 years they have not been part of the inquisition.

 

 

Except the Inquisition is secular in the Imperium.

 

Wait.  1997-1998 is when the Sisters of Battle Codex was worth the paper ot was printed on because when 1998 rolled around, 3rd Edition made the codex invalid.  You couldnt USE the codex!  Go look at that codex, Pretre.  It died on the vine.  

 

THEN you just had the thing in the actual 3rd Edition BRB.  That was it.  It wasn't a codex in that form, it was just stats you could use for them if you wanted to include them...which no one did pretty much.  Fast Forward.  You're going to claim that Chapter Approved was EVER considered in any way an official thing that any player had to accept?  You know better.  It was an anthology of ideas from the White Dwarfs that people could and did ignore at will.  Especially the Trial assault rules and things like that.

 

So no.  You're wrong here.  I'm sorry.  1998 (not 1997) to 2003 they were effectively NOTHING but an entry in the BRB because the Codex was now unusable.

 

It wasn't until 2003 they actually had a codex again and an identity.  That WAS the third Edition Witch Hunter codex.  There was nothing inbetween Pretre other than this 2002 Chapter Approved thing you're talking about, which ALSO wasn't a codex and didn't include much of anything in the way of fluff.  In fact after looking at it, it looks like nothing more than a precursor to the eventual Witch Hunters Codex!

 

The bottom line is simple:  as a codex, few lasted longer and the stuff BEFORE it was invalidated in a year, the stuff in Chapter Approved doesnt really even address the issues you're having with the separation of the two and the stuff that followed is recent.

 

So if one is going to argue for a NON-Inquisitorial kind of thing, don't do so on the strength of history because history isn't behind this interpretation at all.  The weight of history lies in the pages of the Witch Hunter Codex.

[pretre]

Wait.  1997-1998 is when the Sisters of Battle Codex was worth the paper ot was printed on because when 1998 rolled around, 3rd Edition made the codex invalid.  You couldnt USE the codex!  Go look at that codex, Pretre.  It died on the vine.  

 

THEN you just had the thing in the actual 3rd Edition BRB.  That was it.  It wasn't a codex in that form, it was just stats you could use for them if you wanted to include them...which no one did pretty much.  Fast Forward.  You're going to claim that Chapter Approved was EVER considered in any way an official thing that any player had to accept?  You know better.  It was an anthology of ideas from the White Dwarfs that people could and did ignore at will.  Especially the Trial assault rules and things like that.

 

So no.  You're wrong here.  I'm sorry.  1998 (not 1997) to 2003 they were effectively NOTHING but an entry in the BRB because the Codex was now unusable.

 

It wasn't until 2003 they actually had a codex again and an identity.  That WAS the third Edition Witch Hunter codex.  There was nothing inbetween Pretre other than this 2002 Chapter Approved thing you're talking about, which ALSO wasn't a codex and didn't include much of anything in the way of fluff.  In fact after looking at it, it looks like nothing more than a precursor to the eventual Witch Hunters Codex!

 

The bottom line is simple:  as a codex, few lasted longer and the stuff BEFORE it was invalidated in a year, the stuff in Chapter Approved doesnt really even address the issues you're having with the separation of the two and the stuff that followed is recent.

 

So if one is going to argue for a NON-Inquisitorial kind of thing, don't do so on the strength of history because history isn't behind this interpretation at all.  The weight of history lies in the pages of the Witch Hunter Codex.

You're wrong about the BBB thing. The official army list was the WD/Chapter Approved list from 2001 (when WD came out)  to 2003 when C:WH came out. Trust me, I was there. The Chapter Approved simply collected it in one place in 2002.

[pretre]

Gah, Necrontyr ninja'd me. I support his answer.

[pretre]

I mean, believe what you want dude. You're free to do so. But don't try to apply this 'The majority of history is Inquisition' drek, because that's simply not backed up by facts.

 

1997-2003 was C:SOB, BBB and C:WD/C:CA. Non-Inquisition force. 6 years.

2003-2011 Was C:WH, shoehorned in with Inquisition for a game that GW gave up on not long after they launched it. 8 Years

2011 to Now. Post C:WH, non-Inquisition. 4 Years

 

Hmm. 10 is bigger than 8. Funny that.

 

Are we saying that Grey Knights should only be part of the Inquisition as well? Militarum Tempestus? Assassins? They all existed in the DH/WH codexes for 8 years too. 

[Lord Hanaur]

Chapter Approved lists were 100% legal and official then. It was the only way to play Sisters and Necrons (which I both played, so I'm allowed an opinion.) 

 

I don't get where you're coming from at all. The new allies mechanic works so much better than the old Daemon.Witchunters one. 

 

Sisters are part of the Ecclesiarchy, not the Inquisition. The Inquisition is a stand alone organization, and having it's own allied force makes much more sense, is more workable for all forces, and much less clunky.

 

Or are you just trying to be "unorthadox?"

The new allies matrix works so much better?  

 

eh...

 

If I may be so bold as to remind you, the allies thing for Witch hunters was a fluff consideration of the reach of the Inquisition and its authority to bring other Imperial Forces under its control.  It also solved the problem of the Sisters of Battle serving as "mere detachments" to Space Marines as they had been before, allowing them to function better as a stand alone force.  That was why they did it.  That is a far cry from a SYSTEM that lets Necrons jump in bed with Space Marines.  Stating that this allies system is "better" than a singular codex having a fluffy ability to kind of cross the lines is a bit of a broad paintbrush for me.  

 

Sisters ARE the Ecclesiarchy basically, but the detachment from its association with the Inquisition ignores their fluff which started, as you know...  with service to an Inquisitor!  And here's the thing I'm really struggling to understand:  Why is it a better solution NOT to include the Inquisitors than if they are so linked?  Putting the Inquisition in another "Codex", especially the way they did it, allows total abuse.  "yes here's my Inquisitior whose running around in a freaking Tau army, because that makes sense".  Uh huh.  Way better system.  Oh and what's this?  I can do it without any requirement to take ANYTHING else?

 

Further making the Inquisitions stand alone nature poor at best is that if a TO allowed unlimited detachments, you could take the Grenade caddies for the cost of a prayer in every unit!  And you wonder why TO's are limiting Detachments.  Stuff like this would happen so much less frequently if they were attached to say...  Adepta Sororitas?

 

And here's an irony:  the current system you laud is actually allowing MORE things to be taken into a Sisters of Battle force than were ever allowed in the Witch Hunter Codex!  So how can that be more fluffy?  How can it be a better system when all this other fallout is true?

 

I'm not railing to recreate 40K again.  I love 7E.  So don't misrepresent me on that point.  But on the issue of Sisters of Battle I don't see any reason why it's better to do what they are doing now as compared to making Sisters of Battle tied to the Inquisition.  In fact given how the Inquisition codex works...whats the difference?  I can ALREADY take the Inquisition guy in my Sisters of Battle force to lead them with no real penalty other than Detachment restrictions.  So...  at least by attaching him you'd now have that option and not cost a Detachment slot and he would require much more of a points commitment which balances its presence in a Tau army.  You think that Inquisitor is just going to walts onto a field of battle with Tau without a bodyguard?  Yeah right!  last time I checked the Space mariens ordered Exterminatus on them and they still take that a little personally.

 

Or perhaps you like the potential abuse you can put the inquisition codex to?  Is that its laudable value?  That it can help a "build" out?  

 

I like 40K a lot but i liked it a lot better when people were actually recreating battles between factions instead of creating "builds" like in some video game.  Those days are gone, but they will be missed.

[Lord Hanaur]

I mean, believe what you want dude. You're free to do so. But don't try to apply this 'The majority of history is Inquisition' drek, because that's simply not backed up by facts.

 

1997-2003 was C:SOB, BBB and C:WD/C:CA. Non-Inquisition force. 6 years.

2003-2011 Was C:WH, shoehorned in with Inquisition for a game that GW gave up on not long after they launched it. 8 Years

2011 to Now. Post C:WH, non-Inquisition. 4 Years

 

Hmm. 10 is bigger than 8. Funny that.

 

Are we saying that Grey Knights should only be part of the Inquisition as well? Militarum Tempestus? Assassins? They all existed in the DH/WH codexes for 8 years too. 

97-2003 was not the same and you stating that it was is oversimplifciation.  And you know it.  there was NOTHING in the BRB but stats and some brief notes about them.  so give it up.  Ill get you a copy.

 

We're not talking about assassins, but yes, i am fine with assassins serving the iNquisition.  that image ALSO lasted longer than any USABLE codex they were in and continued on into the Grey Knights Codex and was only dropped there in the newest one.  So sure.  Yes.  i think that's fine.  The image of assassins working for that shadowy organization is fine.  That's where they were, the longest.

 

This is a taste thing.  not a history thing Pretre.  And thats fine.  My objection is to you casting it into any light other than that.

[pretre]

97-2003 was not the same and you stating that it was is oversimplifciation.  And you know it.  there was NOTHING in the BRB but stats and some brief notes about them.  so give it up.  Ill get you a copy.

 

We're not talking about assassins, but yes, i am fine with assassins serving the iNquisition.  that image ALSO lasted longer than any USABLE codex they were in and continued on into the Grey Knights Codex and was only dropped there in the newest one.  So sure.  Yes.  i think that's fine.  The image of assassins working for that shadowy organization is fine.  That's where they were, the longest.

 

This is a taste thing.  not a history thing Pretre.  And thats fine.  My objection is to you casting it into any light other than that.

I have it. I played all of the versions of SOB, have you? 

 

It is a taste thing. I even said that you could believe what you wanted because it's a taste thing. You're the one trying to say that they have to be Inquisition because of 'history'. I'm saying that if we go by that lens, they were NOT inquisition longer than they were.

 

And again, Assassins aren't part of the inquisition. The Assassins are a separate organization with their own seat on Terra. Just because they were in that codex really doesn't mean much. I think you'll find they spent more time outside the inquisition (even from a codex standpoint) than they did in (since they go back to rogue trader).

[pretre]

It also solved the problem of the Sisters of Battle serving as "mere detachments" to Space Marines as they had been before, allowing them to function better as a stand alone force. 

 

And here's an irony:  the current system you laud is actually allowing MORE things to be taken into a Sisters of Battle force than were ever allowed in the Witch Hunter Codex!  So how can that be more fluffy?  How can it be a better system when all this other fallout is true?

 

When were SOB 'mere detachments'? The only time they were 'mere detachments' was the C:WH codex. They were there own army in BBB, in C:SOB, in White Dwarf (both versions), etc. You're just wrong here.

 

It's more fluffy now because they are ALLIES and not subordinates.

[Lord Hanaur]

I finally got in there before pretre! I'm getting good at internetting.

Its something you may wish you were not good at someday.  according to certain sources, the internet will end in ten years.

[Lord Hanaur]

When were SOB 'mere detachments'? The only time they were 'mere detachments' was the C:WH codex. They were there own army in BBB, in C:SOB, in White Dwarf (both versions), etc. You're just wrong here.

 

It's more fluffy now because they are ALLIES and not subordinates.

No.  they were stand alone in Witch Hunters.  They COULD be detached in  WitchHunters.  They were originally something you could add to a Marine army.  

 

That has zero to do with the historical time frame discussion anyways.  

[pretre]

No.  they were stand alone in Witch Hunters.  They COULD be detached in  WitchHunters.  They were originally something you could add to a Marine army.  

 

That has zero to do with the discussion anyways.

Except the whole book relegated them to the military arm of the Inquisition. Hence a detachment. Previous to that and after that, they were a stand alone force who was only beholden to the Ecclesiarchy, as they should be. They only were added to the inquisition to give them a military arm to support the 40k side of the Inquisitor game.

[Lord Hanaur]

Well the Inquisition became the people who watch the people who watch the people.  They had the Ordo Malleus which was Grey Knights...  The ordo militant.  remember?

 

As to the threads purported reason for existing (which has now become a codex history lesson) The Sisters of Battle currently have large holes to fill in their codex.  Not game losing holes, just holes.  Anti-air is non existent and Psykers are too (as they should be).

 

That's germane because it means that it essentially joins the Militarum Tempestus, the Haemonculus Coven, the Inquisition, the Grey Knights, and the Necrons as Codex's that are written with multiple detachments as a given in the way they are written.  And at some point, we are going to have to decide if 1+1 is really going to allow for those codex's to be expressed in their full glory.

 

My own Haemonculus Coven list could not exist at LVO, interestingly.  Neither could the Necron Warrior based list I made (though its easily converted to a 1+1) and certainly not the Canoptek Harvest list would not work at LVO.  Militarum Tempestus is hard pressed when forced into a 1+1 and pretty much may as well not come if they go built with just their base Command Groups and an ally unless its just for the funsies (and that's totally valid).

 

So I think that in the case of Sisters of Battle, 1+1 doesn't hurt them terribly but you need two CADS to fill the holes and LVO isn't down with that either.  It's an interesting problem.  I was quite content with normal force Orgs until I had to fight Chaos FMC spam.  A single CAD no longer looked as appealing for Sisters of Battle against some very specific 1+1 lists...

 

I'm allowing up to three Detachments as long as one is a Combined Arms Detachment in the last tournament and the upcoming one.  We will see how it goes.  The first one troubled me a little because of the Adamantine Lance, which was SUCH a mismatch for some players.  We shall see how that plays out again in this next one.  The question is:  allow three Detachments and just limit the "Campaign Supplement" stuff (but then Blood angels and necron players are going to be up in arms) or just shrink it back to 1+1.  Unenviable choices to make.

[pretre]

As to the threads purported reason for existing (which has now become a codex history lesson) The Sisters of Battle currently have large holes to fill in their codex.  Not game losing holes, just holes.  Anti-air is non existent and Psykers are too (as they should be).

 

So I think that in the case of Sisters of Battle, 1+1 doesn't hurt them terribly but you need two CADS to fill the holes and LVO isn't down with that either.  It's an interesting problem.  I was quite content with normal force Orgs until I had to fight Chaos FMC spam.  A single CAD no longer looked as appealing for Sisters of Battle against some very specific 1+1 lists...

Two CADs are certainly not necessary to make them viable.

 

Sisters of Battle can field flyers with Forgeworld and anti-flyer with Fortifications. They also can get FW Lords of War in the form of any of the Knight variants. A CAD of SOB and an Ally of SOB is also pretty potent from an AV13 spam perspective (repressors). All of those are legal options for pure sisters with the LVO format.

 

Not to mention that they are great 1+1 allies with a number of forces. 

[Lord Hanaur]

Lets assume for arguments sake that we dont want to force people into Forge World stuff in order to play.  So there's that.

[Lord Hanaur]

 

Not to mention that they are great 1+1 allies with a number of forces. 

Oh and allied Detachments can't be from the same Faction so it really kind of forces the two CADS.  otherwise a ton of your best alliance members are barred.

[pretre]

Oh and allied Detachments can't be from the same Faction so it really kind of forces the two CADS.  otherwise a ton of your best alliance members are barred.

LVO allows same faction allies.

[pretre]

Lets assume for arguments sake that we dont want to force people into Forge World stuff in order to play.  So there's that.

No one is forcing anyone, but a lot of events ALLOW forgeworld as an option.

[Lord Hanaur]

LVO allows same faction allies.

So for LVO that's fine.

[Lord Hanaur]

No one is forcing anyone, but a lot of events ALLOW forgeworld as an option.

And because it is an option doesn't change the basic truth which is that the Codex really really is helped more than should be necessary against certain lists.  Legal lists don't allow what LVO is allowing and so in fairness, the 1+1 problem does remain for the codex in tournaments that only allow legal allies.

[Burk]

I honestly dont understand the issue here.  Why is arguing even occuring?  

[Burk]

And because it is an option doesn't change the basic truth which is that the Codex really really is helped more than should be necessary against certain lists.  .

You just described every codex in the game?