Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Next 40k Project for me, as soon as Minotaurs/GK are presentable, is to work on my Chaos Marines. Minotaurs and GK are very much getting close to done. Been fiddling with battlescribe regarding chaos, from time to time. That said, I can't make heads or tails of how to make a list anymore. I think the new book just has too many options, or something, but I can't seem to make a CSM army that I want to play. Maybe I just haven't used them in too long. Or maybe I should just ditch my CSM and start another army. Looking for other people's successful lists to give me an idea of what a "winning" CSM list would look like. I won't copy, I'm just trying to figure out if I'm being unreasonable with my evaluation of my CSM desires. I haven't seriously played CSM since we had that good codex, you know the one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne_Cobbb Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 How do you like to play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Just buy my giant noise marine army and you are golden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 How do you like to play? Difficult to pinpoint. I drift between defensive and gimicky styles of play (or rather, contextually effective units/rules). I tend to steer towards MSU and mini-deathstars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Just buy my giant noise marine army and you are golden. That's the thing. I don't need to buy more [CSM] models. I have lots and can convert those I lack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Part of the issue is that, for all the options CSM have, very few of them are actually very good at all. Most of my success with CSM has come from fast Assault lists, using lots of Spawn and MaulerFiends, led by a JuggerLord. Troops are essentially just minimal Culties who hide and try not to get killed. But basically everything involving actual Units of Chaos Space Marines themselves has been pretty underwhelming to me. The main exception has been Nurgle lists, Biker Lord with Spawn and/or Typhus with Zombies, plus some meched up Plague Marines. Support varies depending on how you've got the rest of the list organized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Are you going to play this army? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Are you going to play this army? Yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Part of the issue is that, for all the options CSM have, very few of them are actually very good at all. Most of my success with CSM has come from fast Assault lists, using lots of Spawn and MaulerFiends, led by a JuggerLord. Troops are essentially just minimal Culties who hide and try not to get killed. But basically everything involving actual Units of Chaos Space Marines themselves has been pretty underwhelming to me. The main exception has been Nurgle lists, Biker Lord with Spawn and/or Typhus with Zombies, plus some meched up Plague Marines. Support varies depending on how you've got the rest of the list organized. Hmm...don't really want to play either of those army builds... How about an Iron Warriors Fortification theme? Or in general, how feasible is the Iron Warriors theme of siege defense/offense? In general, how feasible is chaos undivided? (Like unmarked CSM, not black legion) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 The basic CSM Units are pretty bad, honestly. They're only one Point per Model cheaper than regular Space Marines, and for that one Point, Loyalists get ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Chapter Tactics, all of which are (at least potentially) a pretty big deal. Loyalists can also get a Heavy or Special in a 5 Man Squad, and don't have to pay for a Veteran if they don't want one. In exchange, CSM mostly get access to a bunch of upgrade options that are themselves overpriced, and largely worse supporting Units. I guess you could put a bunch of Havocs in a Fortress of Redemption or something, and that wouldn't be a terrible firebase, since being in a fort negates the Morale issues that are one of their big problems and Havocs are pretty efficient when they're not running away. The FoR brings some Barrage firepower, too, which is another CSM lack. No really good options for going after Objectives, tho. Maybe make some mechanical Counts-As "Spawn" (your old-school Dreads might actually work well here if you've got any of the Chaos ones), or use that Helbrute Formation that lets them Deep Strike or something. Still probably going to be mediocre at best. Allies could help shore that up. Daemons are the classic, rock a bunch of Flesh Hounds or something to get some real speed in there. Necrons might fit well visually with Iron Warriors, and you can bring some dudes in Scythes to get at distant Objectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 The basic CSM Units are pretty bad, honestly. They're only one Point per Model cheaper than regular Space Marines, and for that one Point, Loyalists get ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Chapter Tactics, all of which are (at least potentially) a pretty big deal. Loyalists can also get a Heavy or Special in a 5 Man Squad, and don't have to pay for a Veteran if they don't want one. In exchange, CSM mostly get access to a bunch of upgrade options that are themselves overpriced, and largely worse supporting Units. I guess you could put a bunch of Havocs in a Fortress of Redemption or something, and that wouldn't be a terrible firebase, since being in a fort negates the Morale issues that are one of their big problems and Havocs are pretty efficient when they're not running away. The FoR brings some Barrage firepower, too, which is another CSM lack. No really good options for going after Objectives, tho. Maybe make some mechanical Counts-As "Spawn" (your old-school Dreads might actually work well here if you've got any of the Chaos ones), or use that Helbrute Formation that lets them Deep Strike or something. Still probably going to be mediocre at best. Hmm... Was thinking about an offensive IW army, and a Defensive IW army. Like mostly the same units, but one built for besieging the enemy, and another built for being the besieged army. FoR is lacking due to 7th's requirement to place the fortication within your own deployment zone. I have fielded it and it just doesn't work. Point costs for upgrades, like void shields, sully any attempt to make that fortification feasible due to each section being it's own building. Snazzy upgrade to allow all sections' weapons to fire from the tower sounds good, until you realize that it means they must all fire at the same target. FSR could work. I can totally picture Iron Warriors with dual battle cannon FSR, Void Shield, Quad Autocannon, 3 barbed wire sections, 2 tank trap sections and a barricade wall (350pts). Could also snag some Astra Millitarum "allies" to help with this army. Would fit pretty well with theme. How about super heavies? There's a very Iron Warriors looking Imperial knight head, the Escalation baneblade Variants, Khorne Lord of Skulls and a few others. Any of these viable for CSM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I went with FoR just because you really want to be able to tuck multiple Havoc Squads away inside Buildings. If you can take multiple Wall of Martyrs Bunkers or something, that would be even better. Knights would definitely be good. There aren't many Armies that a Knight can't help. Baneblade variants, less so. They bring some nice reach-out-and-touch-someone firepower, but don't really add any mobility or counter-assault. Brass Scorpion would probably go in nicely, as well. Don't know about the Lord of Skulls, I'm not really familiar enough with that one's capabilities to think about how it would fit in. CSM Bikes are OK, too, either a big Unit with a Biker Lord in there, or just minimal to dash around for Objectives. Decent delivery system for Melta. They could work as part of your "Siege-Breaker" contingent. For Troops, in this case, as underwhelming as they are, you're probably looking at Rhino-mounted CSM Squads. Keep 'em cheap, keep 'em out of the way, and just go for Objectives or use to get a bit more Melta or Flamer action up to the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Looking for other people's successful lists to give me an idea of what a "winning" CSM list would look like. Step One: Don't use CSM There are no other steps. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 The best way to do iron warriors is the space marines with the 6+ FNP and the it shall not die on vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Don't know about the Lord of Skulls, I'm not really familiar enough with that one's capabilities to think about how it would fit in. Played against it a few times. Prior to the current SM and the Imperial Knight codex, it was pure awesome. Issue is that it has initiative 3, swinging after Knight D weapons is bad for anything that wants to be melee-able and those assault centurions turn it to paste. It also has Rear AV11, which is lacking via anything that can get behind it. In terms of fitting in, it probably costs too much, but the thing is basically a mobile siege ram+Artillery+monster. Beyond the listed weaknesses, it is a beast: -Up to 12 D melee attacks on the charge. -Thunderblitz (can tank shock and ram instead of Stomp) -Daemon Rule (So 5++ and can be affected by Codex Daemon abilities to improve said invulnerable save, like the Grimore) -IWND and 9 HP -Notable weapon 1 is the S9 AP3 Hellstrom template weapon that causes instant death. -Notable weapon 2 is the Apocaliptic Blast which is S9 AP3 and requires re-rolling successful saves. -It can field both Notable weapons on a single model. -AV13 on front and side. -And as a super heavy walker, it can easily keep up with maulerfiends, bikes, rhinos, and chaos spawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Looking for other people's successful lists to give me an idea of what a "winning" CSM list would look like. Okay well I will give you a list that has won a lot of games then. it isnt a theory hammer list. its the one I developed and actually tested more than 20 times. it was built quite specifically to overcome the Wave Spam and it contains 8 different units that can take on multiple unit types. It is mobile and easily handles Maelstrom misions. 6 Objective Secured units, a little Psyker defense and a lot of anti tank and anti-personel in equal measures. The list is balanced, which means it does not DOMINATE any one type of army but also I have found it is not really weak against any of them either. It's total win/loss is 16-3-2 for what that's worth. Two of the three losses were taken as i morphed it into its current shape (it had a Defiler in it originally and no Black Legion, which I fixed) and so in it's CURRENT form it is 16-1-2. Take what you can from its design and chuck the rest. 1996 Night Lords 1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 13 Raptors, 280 pts (Mark of Nurgle+ Meltagun x2) 1 Raptor Champion, 50 pts (Melta Bombs +Mark of Nurgle+ Power Axe x1) 13 Raptors, 280 pts (Mark of Nurgle+ Meltagun x2) 1 Raptor Champion, 50 pts (Melta Bombs +Mark of Nurgle+ Power Axe x1) 4 Chaos Space Marines, 52 pts 1 Aspiring Champion, 23 pts 1 Chaos Rhino, 40 pts (Dirge Caster) 4 Chaos Space Marines, 52 pts 1 Aspiring Champion, 23 pts 1 Chaos Rhino, 40 pts (Dirge Caster) 4 Black Legion Chaos Space Marines (Veterans of the Long War) 1 Aspiring Champion (Veterans of the Long War) 1 Chaos Rhino 40ts (Dirge Caster) 1 Sorcerer, 120 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Melta Bombs + Increase Mastery Level+ Aura of Dark Glory) 1 Black Legion Chaos Lord 160 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Blight Grenades + Melta Bombs + Sigil of Corruption + Combi-Meltagun + Gift of Mutation + Veterans of the Long War + Chaos Bike) 1 The Eye of Night 1 The Hand of Darkness 1 Heldrake, 170 pts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 if you really want an iron warriors theme go regular space Marines, and they shall know no fear is the bees knees. Plenty of support and great ally big machines. If you really want some deamon engines just desperate ally them in. The basic chaos marine has far too many morale issues to make a list centered around them particularly viable. I once considered a knight detachment with multiple allied chaos detachments, really need to make those Marines fearless for the points... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 if you really want an iron warriors theme go regular space Marines, and they shall know no fear is the bees knees. Plenty of support and great ally big machines. If you really want some deamon engines just desperate ally them in. The basic chaos marine has far too many morale issues to make a list centered around them particularly viable. I once considered a knight detachment with multiple allied chaos detachments, really need to make those Marines fearless for the points... I hear you. Completely valid points. Thing is that I already have a SM army. I don't really want another one. Aside from morale issues and their lacking troop weapon options in small squads, what are the other weak points of the CSM army? Okay well I will give you a list that has won a lot of games then. it isnt a theory hammer list. its the one I developed and actually tested more than 20 times. it was built quite specifically to overcome the Wave Spam and it contains 8 different units that can take on multiple unit types It is mobile and easily handles Maelstrom misions. 6 Objective Secured units, a little Psyker defense and a lot of anti tank and anti-personel in equal measures. The list is balanced, which means it does not DOMINATE any one type of army but also I have found it is not really weak against any of them either. It's total win/loss is 16-3-2 for what that's worth. Two of the three losses were taken as i morphed it into its current shape (it had a Defiler in it originally and no Black Legion, which I fixed) and so in it's CURRENT form it is 16-1-2. Take what you can from its design and chuck the rest. 1996 Night Lords 1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle) 13 Raptors, 280 pts (Mark of Nurgle+ Meltagun x2) 1 Raptor Champion, 50 pts (Melta Bombs +Mark of Nurgle+ Power Axe x1) 13 Raptors, 280 pts (Mark of Nurgle+ Meltagun x2) 1 Raptor Champion, 50 pts (Melta Bombs +Mark of Nurgle+ Power Axe x1) 4 Chaos Space Marines, 52 pts 1 Aspiring Champion, 23 pts 1 Chaos Rhino, 40 pts (Dirge Caster) 4 Chaos Space Marines, 52 pts 1 Aspiring Champion, 23 pts 1 Chaos Rhino, 40 pts (Dirge Caster) 4 Black Legion Chaos Space Marines (Veterans of the Long War) 1 Aspiring Champion (Veterans of the Long War) 1 Chaos Rhino 40ts (Dirge Caster) 1 Sorcerer, 120 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Melta Bombs + Increase Mastery Level+ Aura of Dark Glory) 1 Black Legion Chaos Lord 160 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Blight Grenades + Melta Bombs + Sigil of Corruption + Combi-Meltagun + Gift of Mutation + Veterans of the Long War + Chaos Bike) 1 The Eye of Night 1 The Hand of Darkness 1 Heldrake, 170 pts Thank you for the list. So, no special or heavy weapons on the CSM troops. MSU mutilators and oblits. 2x12 raptors and helldrake. Sorcerer, and BL lord. Yeah, I can see that list working. Is it fun to play? On a side note, not sure if it matters for list suggestions, but I do own a pair of CSM Dreadclaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Aside from morale issues and their lacking troop weapon options in small squads, what are the other weak points of the CSM army? In general, everything is too expensive, so you get an Army that's simultaneously too small, too fragile, and doesn't dish out enough damage. The Army is also almost completely lacking in Indirect fire, serious truly long-ranged firepower, and alternate Deployment/good Transports for the Units it has. The Dreadclaw does go some way toward mitigating the latter two, but still suffers from being overpriced. There's also a lot of clogging, with a number of good HS Choices, most of which want multiples if you're taking them at all, a number of solid-excellent Units in Fast Attack, some good HQs, and fairly weak Troops/Elites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Paxmiles, the Night Lords are a blast to play. I like super mobile forces( as you may know) and I like having an army like this that can really saturate an army or jack up vehicles from behind etc. The Black Legion Lord is actually awesome. Expensive as hell but oh so worth it against the armies that cause a lot of problems. I am also enamoured of how well it bypasses the dreaded problem of Tau Empire overwatch. It can null deploy, deploy normally or even play the gunline for a round or two with the Black Legion Lord, his Obliterators and the Sorcerer, defended by numerous defenders that are tough and melee capable. That assumes a short range assaulty enemy of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Oops and note that its actually 14 Raptors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 You could do SM with CSM allies for the actually chaosy stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Hmm. Thanks. My questions are answered: Don't play CSM....Or rather, only field fun CSM armies that don't have to win to be enjoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Yep, problem is they are tailored towards assault but with the morale issues they have they are too many points to risk in the dangerous melee. If icons could be characters and get a 2+look out sir I think big mobs of regular Marines could work but the points are still just too much to really be successful. Unless you are going deamon heavy but then it is a deamon army not chaos marines... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 I would strongly disagree with that summation. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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