Guest Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 I would strongly disagree with that summation. Lol. Maybe I've got it wrong, but it looks like that Night lords list is built around having fun. Just because it wins, doesn't mean my summation is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Maybe I've got it wrong, but it looks like that Night lords list is built around having fun. Just because it wins, doesn't mean my summation is wrong. I...uh...what? Look, I don't know what you want, so all I can do is answer the original question. When a force can win 16 of its 19 games or more importantly, lose only one, I am very hard pressed to understand how that, coupled with how much fun it is, could ever be summed up as "don't play CSM". If I hadn't DROPPED my army on the floor, a moment I will remember with horror for quite a long time, I'd have kept playing it. Still will when I get the heart to look at it again. Did I miss a page when I was in school? With that kind of record, you could go out and win 6 tournaments (paint willing). Macro-generalizing is just absolutely RAMPANT on 40K forums and blogs. If you allow those generalizations to dominate your thinking, you will miss a lot of opportunities both to have fun and to win. I see my opponents "fun" Triple DreadKnight list with Draigo Deathstar and think to myself: Effective most likely, but fun? maaaaaybe... When I see a Night Lords list that is all over the field I think: Effective, but fun? Hellz yeah! And what could be more fun than seeing the horror stricken face of a Wave spam General as his hulls are smashed in like tinfoil...repeatedly. Brings a tear to the eye just thinking about it, honestly. =) Anytime you can have success against the Metabeasts of the 40K universe, you gotta' feel good about that. I encourage you to play Chaos marines and explore them. The exploration is its own reward anyways, which is why I have gone so far and wide in 40K armies. Do not preoccupy your mind with negatives. See possibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Summation, as you called it, is this whole bit: Don't play CSM....Or rather, only field fun CSM armies that don't have to win to be enjoyed. Not just "don't play CSM." Maybe not clear, I'm saying that I just need to build a fun army. If I can create a winning fun army, is anyone's guess, but my goal should be creating a fun army. So when I say your army fits, I'm thinking of lines like this: When I see a Night Lords list that is all over the field I think: Effective, but fun? Hellz yeah! Seems like you built an army that's fun to play. Anyway, I think I will be going the IW offense/defense route. Should be fun to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 I don't know what IW is, but if it's a good time, then I'm all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 You can build CSM lists and do okay with them but they get infuriating the second you stop taking cult troops. I bet a blood angels detachment for the jumpers would be way better. That is the thing CSM based Marines losing and they shall know know fear is so crazy even just stubborn would let me feel confiscated comfortable taking basic Marine, but I look at the cost of the squad and how easy it is to lose it and it just guts me. CSM are kinda cool for MSU but then regular Marines can do that better now too. For undivided type themes grab the loyalist version. Iron warriors are the opposite side of the coin from imperial fists, I've found allot of fun going with super aggressive Tactical heavy lists. For night lords I look at marine heavy white scars or blood angel assault squads (less now that they aren't troops). Both of these legions don't strike me as having the morale issues that plague the renegades that the current book embodies. Telling you Pax toy with the idea of an ally detachment of chaos to some regular marine bulk should change the flavor enough. Warp Smith, mutilators, small squad cheap icon in rhino (for deep strike accuracy), hell drake, obliterators. Then bulk it out with some shooty Marines for fire power and support. Let the chaos so the sacrificial get in their face while the Marines win the mission. I think that would get you the feeling of the iron warriors with deamon engine support while giving you better tools to win in a far less frustrating manner. Trust me it pains me heavily but GW has rarely done the tenacious grit of the iron warriors right with the chaos book. When undivided rerolled morale and chaos marines had an extra point of LD it worked but back then the list lacked any fun artillery or machine toys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 I don't know what IW is, but if it's a good time, then I'm all for it. IW is Iron Warriors, it's a CSM chapter and one of the founding chapters involved in the Horus heresy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 You can build CSM lists and do okay with them but they get infuriating the second you stop taking cult troops. I bet a blood angels detachment for the jumpers would be way better. That is the thing CSM based Marines losing and they shall know know fear is so crazy even just stubborn would let me feel confiscated comfortable taking basic Marine, but I look at the cost of the squad and how easy it is to lose it and it just guts me. CSM are kinda cool for MSU but then regular Marines can do that better now too. For undivided type themes grab the loyalist version. Iron warriors are the opposite side of the coin from imperial fists, I've found allot of fun going with super aggressive Tactical heavy lists. For night lords I look at marine heavy white scars or blood angel assault squads (less now that they aren't troops). Both of these legions don't strike me as having the morale issues that plague the renegades that the current book embodies. Telling you Pax toy with the idea of an ally detachment of chaos to some regular marine bulk should change the flavor enough. Warp Smith, mutilators, small squad cheap icon in rhino (for deep strike accuracy), hell drake, obliterators. Then bulk it out with some shooty Marines for fire power and support. Let the chaos so the sacrificial get in their face while the Marines win the mission. I think that would get you the feeling of the iron warriors with deamon engine support while giving you better tools to win in a far less frustrating manner. Trust me it pains me heavily but GW has rarely done the tenacious grit of the iron warriors right with the chaos book. When undivided rerolled morale and chaos marines had an extra point of LD it worked but back then the list lacked any fun artillery or machine toys... I hear you, but I think I'm going to try it this way. I already have a loyalist army and I don't want another (even if loyalist only in rules). Most certainly going to take some allies. Thinking IG or heavy conversion TAU would be fitting IW allies. As for morale issues, not perfectly certain if I need to bypass it, but there are quite a few options with unmarked CSM. There are two fearless unmarked special characters (Huron and Fabius), 2 more non-character fearless ICs (Chaos lord and Dark Apostle), telepathy psychic powers, and the Icon of Vengeance. The veterans of the long war upgrade can also increase leadership. Last, most CSM units can be fielded much larger than SM equivalents, which can help with morale issues. On a side note, ATSKNF isn't very useful for backfield units. Sad as it is, I've had my devastators and heavy weapon combat squads flee off the table more than once. Merely auto-regrouping doesn't help much with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 but auto regroup IS cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 but auto regroup IS cool. Not if you flee off the table prior to auto-regrouping... Yeah, don't put them so close to the table edge, but there are games where you really want to be as far away from the opponent as possible. Anyway, I do like ATSKNF, was just pointing out one of the limitations it has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 The biggest thing is losing that big squad in assault lose by just a couple wounds and they run for the hills. Pax you are totally right on the options you will just find it frustrating. I tried for a few years before finally going loyalist. I'd liken it to your dark angel experimentation, so if you are down for that ride again go for it just don't say didn't warn ya ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 The ride is most of the fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 The biggest thing is losing that big squad in assault lose by just a couple wounds and they run for the hills. Pax you are totally right on the options you will just find it frustrating. I tried for a few years before finally going loyalist. I'd liken it to your dark angel experimentation, so if you are down for that ride again go for it just don't say didn't warn ya ;) 25% of a big squad is more than a couple, but I get your point. I often find myself doing stuff like that DA experimentation blog. And honestly, that DA codex is fine. It has two major flaws, which can be easily bypassed with allies: Only special characters unlock alt troops, and, entire army is too elite. Add some regular SM or IG allies and you can quickly fill all the gaps in that army. If going the deathwing route, GK allies are ideal. The big weight for me, is that I already have a ton of CSM models. Not using them is sad. I could sell them, I suppose...but they are/were a very fun army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 Play em. Good times ahead. Maybe make an army built for Highlander tournament competition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Those CSM basic "troop" infantry seem a bit lacking for points and weapon access, what about those cultists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Cultists are pretty poor unless you take the Dark Apostle. Or they are Nurgle zombies for Typhus. However they often can fill out a list points wise and a reserve unit of them designed to do no more than snag objectives? Not bad. The Dark Apostle definitely adds something to an army that has multiple units of them. The Chaos Space marines that I use are basic Marines. They are there for sheer toughness. I trust them far more to take objectives and hold them against enemy shooting. Late in the game, enemy shooting is much more sparse as well, so as long as you dont expose the actual Marines themselves to damage early, they can be great at their job in small numbers. The Rhinos arent even necessary as long as you did a good job of objective deployment, hough Dirge Casters are just too cool for school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aventine Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 The 5 Helbrutes as a unit formation is pretty fun. Have you seen that one Pax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 All three of the Helbrute Formations are pretty cool, actually. I had a blast with the one where you have three of them Deep Striking and going crazy every Turn at the last OFCC, and the Helcult gives you two Units of Fearless Culties, which is pretty sweet even if they don't help with your required Troops Choices. One of these days, I'm going to run all three of those Formations together somewhere that Detachment limits aren't an issue. I've got enough Helbrutes for it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Cultists are pretty poor unless you take the Dark Apostle. Or they are Nurgle zombies for Typhus. However they often can fill out a list points wise and a reserve unit of them designed to do no more than snag objectives? Not bad. The Dark Apostle definitely adds something to an army that has multiple units of them. The Chaos Space marines that I use are basic Marines. They are there for sheer toughness. I trust them far more to take objectives and hold them against enemy shooting. Late in the game, enemy shooting is much more sparse as well, so as long as you dont expose the actual Marines themselves to damage early, they can be great at their job in small numbers. The Rhinos arent even necessary as long as you did a good job of objective deployment, hough Dirge Casters are just too cool for school. How does the dark apostle improve them? Given that the much cheaper chaos lord would confer fearless to the unit too, not sure what the dark apostle brings to the cultists. I do like the dark apostle. Was thinking that for IW, the dark apostle represents a different role than for the normal chaos, but I think he'd still fit quite well. I do own two dreadclaw drop pods. At 100pts each, those could be fun for troops transports. Mind you, FW, so not in the GG league. I think it was 5th edition, last I ran it, but I did have a successful footslog SM tactical squad build that was intended to operate as a full 10-man. Was melta gun and heavy bolter, sarge with fist and combi-melta. Logic was that the unit should be doing one of two things. If there was a tank, they should move towards it, seeking point blank with melta and fist. If the opponent was infantry, they should sit and shoot with bolters and heavy bolter. I recall it working reasonably well, though very spendy. Haven't really done that build since SM changed to allow heavy weapons at the 5-man level. Deal was that against most "canny" opponents, having 7 extra bodies meant that the powerfist got to swing against MCs and such. This was prior to the challenge concept, so I'm not sure how well that would work in this edition. 195pts per unit (CSM troops). Hmm... The 5 Helbrutes as a unit formation is pretty fun. Have you seen that one Pax? Saw it. Nah, not really interested in any of the datasheets I've seen for CSM. I do like that Khorne Lord of Skulls, though he's probably over powered for normal games and would require quite a bit of converting to get to a non-Khorne state (Khorne symbols on the stupid thing's tracks....). I wonder how they scale with baneblade tracks... For the Lord of Skulls, I think I'd go with the Hades Gatling Cannon and the daemongorge cannon for an offensive build (953pts), and the Skull Hurler and Ichor Cannon for a Defensive build (958pts). Model is most certainly one where they picked the point cost and the appearance prior to making the rules, so it's got a lot of overpowered rules which make the model overpriced. It is true, it would make a very good siege engine... That said, I think it would get butchered by normal imperial knights (it's Initiative 3). And to add salt, if the imperial knight was the warlord, he could roll on the escalation warlord traits and he'd even get a VP for every 3 HP lost from my Lord of Skulls (way to think it out, GW). And it's much weaker than those 750pt Warhound Scout titans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 The thing about the Dark Apostle and Culties is that he has that Ld10 Aura, so you can trail a couple more Cultie Squads back to him and have them, if not Fearless, at least Ld10, which is pretty good against Shooting at least. I ran a 90 Culty List once that used the Apostle to keep them all in line. Worked fairly well, but the list was kind of boring to play, so I didn't bother with it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 The thing about the Dark Apostle and Culties is that he has that Ld10 Aura, so you can trail a couple more Cultie Squads back to him and have them, if not Fearless, at least Ld10, which is pretty good against Shooting at least. I ran a 90 Culty List once that used the Apostle to keep them all in line. Worked fairly well, but the list was kind of boring to play, so I didn't bother with it again. Hmm, yeah, I suppose if the plan was to spam cultists, the Dark Apostle would be very impressive with them. Agree, it does sound pretty boring to play. Seems like IG allies would make sense instead (or tau, as those would be easy Iron Warriors mechanical monstrosities). As for that lord of skulls, I just can't do enough with half my points dedicated to that one unit. It isn't that the army wouldn't be effective, but relying on a single unit to do everything seems in poor taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 If you have access to and wide spread legality for Forgeworld, the IA13 rules for renegade IG are awesome (supposedly, I haven't seen the book yet). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 If you have access to and wide spread legality for Forgeworld, the IA13 rules for renegade IG are awesome (supposedly, I haven't seen the book yet). Wow...looked though it. Yeah, that army has some pretty awesome options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainFireBob Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Laser destroyers, pax! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Okay, so started looking points for the so called "cheaper" CSM 5man, no weapons or upgrades CSM 75pts SM 70pts 10man, no weapons or upgrades CSM 140 SM 140 Granted CSM can field bigger units and get a "free" vet upgrade, but their units aren't cheaper at the 5 or 10 man level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Yeah, they're only cheaper if you include the Veteran upgrade for Space Marines. If you break the CSM Units down based on the per Model cost for additional Models, it comes out that the Champion upgrade isn't free, you're just required to spend the 10 Points on it. That's one of the reasons that Plague Marines are one of the better options: They actually do get their Champion for free, presumably because someone at GW screwed up their math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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