pretre Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 Wait, is this Karl from Corvallis? Cause his drop pods are pretty as hell. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 If it is Karl, then a mixed IF and AM would be cool. Something like some pods, captain on bike, couple bike squads, knight, contemptor. Use two cads for different chapter tactics (if and ih would be cool). Heck, you probably wouldn't even need the knight (unless you wanted it). I see that looking really good, with good variety, without being OTT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Abuse, taking tough units like ch with 2+ 3++ and denying all opponents slay the warlord can be a bit of a frustration. The key the team event is having varied lists and so captains can pair up like minded lists. Nicely themed lists with beautiful models does help the event. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 It's also worth noting that a team can often get along with one or two 3s. On that note, the first or second list might get through as long as the rest of the team is low. My guess is that the combined 'score' for a team will be lower this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Add 30 Stingwings to the list and profit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Add 30 Stingwings to the list and profit.Any list with 30 sting wings will probably pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAPcom Posted March 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 I don't see a lot in either list that really fits with AdMech fluff in any of the books to date. Skitaari, servitors, magi, weapons platforms, etc. either on foot or in transports backed up with exotic tanks in the various Black Library novels were staples for all the books they were featured in, bikes and jump-MC just don't mesh with an AdMech sell IMO. A knight, that makes sense for some exotic AdMech tech and they already look the part. Also, multiple cookie-cutter units (completely identical count/wargear/etc.) has always been something I've seen as an indication of a focus on competitiveness over other list aspects, which is definitely worth considering for the OFCC teams event, especially if the LRC is swinging the nerf-bat at the power-creep which seemed to be present last year. As was previously suggested, variety between units helps, and (IMO) finding something to replace some things with traditional AdMech style units would help fit the traditional fluff a lot more. My admech don't really follow any of the established fluff (I'm the absolute worst when it comes to fluff, I've read a grand total of 2 black library books :P). They do follow the aesthetics and paint scheme, though. As for the cookie cutter nature, that's an unfortunate by-product of my having a lot of the same models. I never said gerantius was good just that those unaccustomed to knights would be surprised by him. He does take everything surprising about knights up a notch. The 4+ invulnerable is a 3+ for him, he has a higher WS and BS, and the cute reroll the failed stomp all just add to the surprise. These are the things people complain about and if trying to avoid complaints they would best be avoided. Also points not spent on gerantius gives Kap more points to spend on things people will want to engage with which is fun. Biggest tip I have is take stuff that dies back and forth destruction is far more fun than stomp the counters and be invincible! I do agree that gerantius, although massively overpriced, is something that isn't a lot of fun for people not familiar with imperial knights. I'll avoid him and the forgeworld knights for that reason. If it is Karl, then a mixed IF and AM would be cool. Something like some pods, captain on bike, couple bike squads, knight, contemptor. Use two cads for different chapter tactics (if and ih would be cool). Heck, you probably wouldn't even need the knight (unless you wanted it). I see that looking really good, with good variety, without being OTT. Yup, that's me. The pods+bikes list you'll see at the upcoming guardian cup, don't you worry. :) As for ofcc, I'd really like to run an all ad-mech army, as I've finally got the models to do so. I've been playing pods for years now, so OFCC will be a nice break. I really appreciate the input, everyone. I just want to make sure I'm not bringing anything that'll offend most people. The overall power for the rest of my team is relatively low (we're throwing around ideas for a foot-dar army, and an old school style deamon army), so my list will probably be the strongest of the bunch. Thanks again for the help. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottshoemaker Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 @AP Poor attitude. Remind me to not play you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 He asked for an opinion, and he got it. *shrug* Complaining about opinions by offering your own is just as whiny TBH. Not all opinions are equally valid. Citing flawed reasons for your opinion makes it a perfectly legitimate target of criticism. If it is Karl, then a mixed IF and AM would be cool. Something like some pods, captain on bike, couple bike squads, knight, contemptor. Use two cads for different chapter tactics (if and ih would be cool). Heck, you probably wouldn't even need the knight (unless you wanted it). That was one of the other lists he previously had floated as an idea and gotten an almost-identical "OMG SO GUD YOU CANT PLAY THAT AT OFCC ITS TOO WAAC CHEATER LEAFBLOWER." Abuse, taking tough units like ch with 2+ 3++ and denying all opponents slay the warlord can be a bit of a frustration. Yes, but anything your opponent does to win is frustrating. Do you have a lot of ObSec units? It's frustrating because it's so hard to get rid of them all! Do you have almost no ObSec units? It's frustrating because you just took nothing but (shooting/melee/etc) units while minimizing your troops! Do you have all tanks? It's frustrating because everything is so tough! Do you have all bikes? It's frustrating because you're so mobile! Do you have a mix of lots of different units with different roles? It's frustrating because you have a solution for everything! There is literally no list you can take that someone won't find problematic, so "some armies will have trouble with this" is not a meaningful complaint at all. Chapter Smasher isn't a bad unit, but at the end of the day he's just one guy. Throw some shots at him, wait for him to fail 2+s. It's a thing that happens when you roll dice. @AP Poor attitude. Remind me to not play you. Given what I've read of your posts? I don't think I'd want to play you, either, so that won't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Sigh. Can we keep the personal crud off here? We don't need to get all nasty about mandollies. @Karl: Also, if you're the strongest of the bunch... The second list (or a derivative thereof) should be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne_Cobbb Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 I hate everyone! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Not all opinions are equally valid. Citing flawed reasons for your opinion makes it a perfectly legitimate target of criticism. Not everyone plays at the top tables at big tournaments. What you consider weak or not hard, others see differently, it's not a matter of flawed reasoning, it's a matter of perspective. Ordo isn't 3++, asking people here what their thoughts are is going to get a slanted perspective, ESPECIALLY in the context of OFCC team event. My admech don't really follow any of the established fluff (I'm the absolute worst when it comes to fluff, I've read a grand total of 2 black library books :P). They do follow the aesthetics and paint scheme, though. As for the cookie cutter nature, that's an unfortunate by-product of my having a lot of the same models. As I figured, unit duplication has to do with limits on models, not some power gamer strategery. Honestly, I'm excited to see what you come up with. I really appreciate the input, everyone. I just want to make sure I'm not bringing anything that'll offend most people. The overall power for the rest of my team is relatively low (we're throwing around ideas for a foot-dar army, and an old school style deamon army), so my list will probably be the strongest of the bunch. Thanks again for the help. :) Honestly, don't sweat it too much, realistically, until lists are submitted there's no sense of what is an acceptable list or not at OFCC from year to year because the lists are rated against each other. Last year was probably the highest ever in terms of competitive lists and since they were all about at the same level, lots of lists got in that normally wouldn't. There wasn't a lot of really negative feedback compared to several OFCCs, but enough general feeling that it got a bit too hard, so I expect the power level to dip. Essentially, don't take what the peanut gallery (myself included) too seriously until after a list is submitted to the list rating committee. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Yes, but anything your opponent does to win is frustrating. Do you have a lot of ObSec units? It's frustrating because it's so hard to get rid of them all! Do you have almost no ObSec units? It's frustrating because you just took nothing but (shooting/melee/etc) units while minimizing your troops! Do you have all tanks? It's frustrating because everything is so tough! Do you have all bikes? It's frustrating because you're so mobile! Do you have a mix of lots of different units with different roles? It's frustrating because you have a solution for everything! There is literally no list you can take that someone won't find problematic, so "some armies will have trouble with this" is not a meaningful complaint at all. That argument is just poor. There are combinations that appease to a larger audience. Example I don't anyone that doesn't enjoy playing against green tide (w/o the vsg). The fact that you are remaining model after model each turn is fun regardless if you win or lose. Grey knight 5th Ed paladin deathstar is an example of the extreme opposite and I don't know anyone who enjoyed playing against that. Lastly you have this unbending bias to folks who want to give ideas to tone down an army, as if we come from some flawed perspective yet OFCC can draw a full house with that pretense. Masters formats and ofcc format are diametrically opposed and that is ok. Neither is wrong but it's not cool to come in with a holier than though adittude. It's good that you guys are communicating as a team. It is important to make your lists to cover some of heavily themed lists. For example a heavy pie plate army might not be good match for footdar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 That argument is just poor. There are combinations that appease to a larger audience. Example I don't anyone that doesn't enjoy playing against green tide (w/o the vsg). The fact that you are remaining model after model each turn is fun regardless if you win or lose. Grey knight 5th Ed paladin deathstar is an example of the extreme opposite and I don't know anyone who enjoyed playing against that. There's enough typos/ommissions of important words that it actually took me several reads to actually figure this out. But again: literally anything can be "not fun," because fun is subjective and which armies you will/won't match up against well is going to be luck of the draw- even moderated lists will still often have things that some armies just can't handle- for example, a DA list isn't going to have any way to handle a flyer for the most part. Even just one flyer. Lastly you have this unbending bias to folks who want to give ideas to tone down an army, as if we come from some flawed perspective yet OFCC can draw a full house with that pretense. Masters formats and ofcc format are diametrically opposed and that is ok. Neither is wrong but it's not cool to come in with a holier than though adittude. I don't like the idea of a format where an arbitrary and shifting power standard is applied to lists, it's true- I think it puts a false sense of constraints on things that isn't even fun for people who are looking for casual games. But that's not what I was complaining about- the people commenting were not just recommending ways to tone the list down, but incorrectly recommending ways to tone the list down based off of erroneous assumptions. Replacing Gerantius with a regular Knight won't make the list weaker, it will make it stronger; calling Rail Rifle Broadsides "the same old same old you see everywhere" is just outright false. If you're going to try and control the power levels in the game, you at least owe it to yourselves and the people whose lists you're rewriting to get your assessments of what is and isn't strong right, because otherwise you're not even doing what you say you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottshoemaker Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Are you actually telling someone they have a wrong opinion? I really don't think you get the point of the team event. In the end the LRC is the final arbiter so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm fortunate. My team gets such terrible list ratings every year that we can just relax about it. Hehehe. One year the whole teeam was allowed any army they wanted, had to be different ones and they all had to meet a 120 model minimum. Shockingly, no one played Orks. Another year we just all played Tau, splitting up the armies we had and we made sure everyone had Stingwings in their list. I did like getting to compete in the Ordo Open and then in the Team Event. Can't do that this year since they run simultaneous but I figure the really competitive sorts can have at each other in the open with both barrels and we can hope for the LRC to do its thang for the rest of us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Sorry I post solely from a phone, auto correct does a lot of adjustments, and I'm lazy and rarely reread what is posted. I type slower than I think think so I often miss small words. I choose not to have Internet at home, outside of my phone. Just to illustrate a point about gergantius. I personally have read about him but I probably make up about 30% of the player basis. Your knowledge of the game is probably of a more narrow population. For you to see this model across the table you would chuckle, or as you said before fist pump. But to the majority of players who don't scouring the Internet for others opinions would ask a million and one questions. From the answers might make a erroneous assumption that it is more powerful than it is. Feeling unprepared to deal with it would be frustrating. I get how this example is full of holes but so is a lot of folks opinions. If you can't understand why an event would care about such shoddy examples than you don't get ofcc. I'm not saying Gergantius should be banned or other obscure units (anything beyond core codex). That is cool if don't, not cool to say that an opinion is wrong, yes the lrc is quite subjective, but it attempts to be consistent. Last post in here from me derailing feedback about your list. The list need not be fluffy, I personally like to see what folks think of their army through their actions in the hobby. For example a fluffy list, a converted army, a particular paint scheme, a theme, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Perception is a big part of the team event. Perceived power level of the list across from you is often more important than actual power level. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 It is also important to note that asking for opinions in the Forums is not the same as an official LRC rating. He could do better or worse with LRC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 It is also important to note that asking for opinions in the Forums is not the same as an official LRC rating. He could do better or worse with LRC. That was what I was trying to get at earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Are you actually telling someone they have a wrong opinion? It is my opinion that the sun is blue and two is a larger numeric value than one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 It is my opinion that the sun is blue and two is a larger numeric value than one. If we really want to get into a different debate, your opinions on the power level of a certain army are not nearly as quantifiable as those facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 OK, I'm up way past my bedtime here, so this may not be terribly coherent, but I feel like actual power level isn't even really the heart of the issue. A big chunk of the appeal of the OFCC Team Event is for the more casual or occasional players, who don't have the practice for the kind of play that highlights the weaknesses of things like that Chapter Master or Gerantius. Who don't have the practice in analysis to get that Gerantius isn't powerful for the 500 Points he costs and how to use that to gain a relative Points advantage against the rest of the Army. For someone like that, going up against an Army with several Units like that can be incredibly frustrating, and not very fun, even if the game as a whole goes well. Yeah, if they were better Players, they could deal with it better, but they're people with jobs and kids and other stuff that takes a higher priority on their time and energy than being good at 40K. And part of the point of the OFCC is to still have a place for those people in the community. For some of them, it's the only time in the year that they really get to be part of this community. Now, the Captain Matchup system does go some way to mitigating this, as mentioned. It's usually OK having one list on a team with stuff like this, as long as whoever's running it understands that they're the one getting thrown under the bus whenever one comes along. But yeah, there are situations where a couple of Units can make a list unsuitable for the Team Event, even if it's not, overall, a particularly powerful list. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Well said. I think that highlights some of the issues nicely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 I think the real question is when do you sleep? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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