Ravenguard, Tau, Eldar - Release Schedule Rumors

[Lord Hanaur]

psh.

[fluger]

Still crazy good, but it was really needed against the more well rounded lists.  I don't really think that the change is required compared to what I saw and experienced.

 

What's funny is that even WITHOUT it's crazy good shooting attack, the shield is amazeballs for it's basic purpose.  Wave Serpents are priced about appropriately for the shield to work as JUST a shield.  Having the option to then turn it into one of the best guns in the game for free essentially is what makes the thing so freaking broken.  

[Threejacks]

Is this normal for 40k to be replacing codex`s so fast?

 

Are they actually talking a new SM dex too?.

 

Starting to feel like MTG all over again,couldnt keep current with the cards in that game,I can see im going to have problems keeping up with the armies here if this is the new norm for codex life.

[BrainFireBob]

This only happened once before- back in 98 when the entire game fundamentally changed and all codices were invalidated. Codices were 20 page $15 softcover pamphlets back then, though.

 

Editions averaged a five year shelf life.

 

Now, who knows? I have stopped buying them all, and am focusing on armies I own.

[generalripphook]

Ugh does this mean AM is going to be redone "soon" too? 

[InfestedKerrigan]

i think the Serpent Shield should launch Banshees anywhere w/in 24" and then they could still assault

 

They wouldn't take that unique ability away from their beloved Space Marines.  After all, what would the "new kit" be for Codex: Ravenguard if the Space Fairies could go ballistic?

 

[generalripphook]

Thats how they deepstrike!!!

[Guest]

I traded all my banshees a few weeks ago. They just don't work for me.

Used some in a 500pt game, a few months ago. Very effective at that point level.

[Swan-of-War]

@Infested Kerrigan

 

YES!!!  The one on the right even looks like the Great Gonzo!

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, they just REALLY lack.  

 

I'm not sure what it would take to make them viable.  Maybe AP2 power swords and furious charge as well as all the other changes mentioned.  

 

Incubi are just about a perfect model for how to make a good assault Eldar MEQ-killing unit. They're WS5, so they hit a lot of the time; they're S4, so they wound enough to matter. And they're I5, so they get to go before the Marines punch them all to death. (They really should have grenades because for some reason they don't, and the DE codex in general doesn't support their attempted plan, but it's not by any functional fault of theirs.)

 

My bet is that Serpent Shields will just become AP1.

 

This guy right here, he gets it. In the 4E book, the Wave Serpent was the most powerful thing in the codex and arguably one of the few units worth taking- the entire army revolved around it. And, of course, when everyone heard about the new 6E book being released, everyone on the internet insisted that the Wave Serpent would get nerfed because we all know that GW intentionally inverts the power scales every time they publish a book. Just like how Flyrants were the best thing in the 4E Tyranid book but in the 5E book they became... even better, but once the 6E version rolled around they finally got what was coming to them: a major drop in price and boost to their abilities.

 

So yeah, don't count on Wave Serpents being crap. Might happen, might not.

[galahad911]

Incubi are just about a perfect model for how to make a good assault Eldar MEQ-killing unit. They're WS5, so they hit a lot of the time; they're S4, so they wound enough to matter. And they're I5, so they get to go before the Marines punch them all to death. (They really should have grenades because for some reason they don't, and the DE codex in general doesn't support their attempted plan, but it's not by any functional fault of theirs.)

 

 

This guy right here, he gets it. In the 4E book, the Wave Serpent was the most powerful thing in the codex and arguably one of the few units worth taking- the entire army revolved around it. And, of course, when everyone heard about the new 6E book being released, everyone on the internet insisted that the Wave Serpent would get nerfed because we all know that GW intentionally inverts the power scales every time they publish a book. Just like how Flyrants were the best thing in the 4E Tyranid book but in the 5E book they became... even better, but once the 6E version rolled around they finally got what was coming to them: a major drop in price and boost to their abilities.

 

So yeah, don't count on Wave Serpents being crap. Might happen, might not.

 

I remember playing against 4th ed Eldar armies, and serpents were not nearly the problem that the holo skimmers were. Falcons were far more common at Adepticon and local events I went to in 4th.

[pretre]

That's not quite what AP is saying. I think AP is saying that it is a crap shoot. GW doesn't intentionally nerf/buff new units to sell models. They don't understand how rules can be good or not at a larger level. They might try to nerf/buff units, but often they just make new models and then create rules as an after thought.

[Lord Hanaur]

I really REALLY dont think they are that ignorant.  I think more to the point, they are there to sell models and are attempting to point them accordingly.  The trouble I see is that they are seeing Casual games FAR outweigh tournament ones.  So in the end analysis, makeing the units do what they SEEM like they should be able to do has been the watchword for GW, and we've seen that in the newer codex's (IMO).

 

Im not as jaded as some when it comes to GW.  We can laugh about them if it makes us feel superior to do so, but they are ony human and I just think they make mistakes on occassion, and unlike Privateer and other companies, they seem to always have had a policy not to admit it.  Which is the thing I DO blame them for.

[pretre]

attempting to point them accordingly.  

Lol

[pretre]

I really REALLY dont think they are that ignorant.  I think more to the point, they are there to sell models and are attempting to point them accordingly.  The trouble I see is that they are seeing Casual games FAR outweigh tournament ones.  So in the end analysis, makeing the units do what they SEEM like they should be able to do has been the watchword for GW, and we've seen that in the newer codex's (IMO).

To clarify my 'lol'... I am about as pro-GW as they come around here and even I don't believe the above. GW makes models and the rules are a sideshow they put together for funsies; they have made this abundantly clear in the past. Any nerfing or buffing of units is a function of chance at this point.

[crono]

What's funny is that even WITHOUT it's crazy good shooting attack, the shield is amazeballs for it's basic purpose.  Wave Serpents are priced about appropriately for the shield to work as JUST a shield.  Having the option to then turn it into one of the best guns in the game for free essentially is what makes the thing so freaking broken.  

 

Broken is relative, is it not?  Besides, at the end of the day, me bringing 3 or four of them didn't make that much of a difference in terms of winning or losing our games did it?  Granted, I'm just really just getting up to speed with the current edition, but still it wasn't enough.  Alternatively, versus a smaller MEQ list I would have a better match up, but still drop pod lists and several biker builds have caused major problems for serpent spam lists.  Also I realize that I am ignoring the use of other formations/detachments to cover the deficiencies for the list (aka hornets, etc., etc.)

 

Again, I don't want people to misunderstand, it is one of the best guns in the game.  But costs at a minimum 185 pts to maximize the effectiveness (the 65 pt DA tax).  Even then, after paying that cost, it still a random output weapon.  Overpowered, sure, broken... I'd be expect eldar lists to have won even more major events if that was the case.  Where I definitely think that the weapon is too good, is more about the lists that run serpent spam.  Like our conversation from a few months back, it would be nice to have more variety in eldar lists.  Unfortunately at that point cost it is just too good to pass up on, and too many of the eldar lists look about the same.

[pretre]

Again, I don't want people to misunderstand, it is one of the best guns in the game.  But costs at a minimum 185 pts to maximize the effectiveness (the 65 pt DA tax).  Even then, after paying that cost, it still a random output weapon.  Overpowered, sure, broken... I'd be expect eldar lists to have won even more major events if that was the case.  Where I definitely think that the weapon is too good, is more about the lists that run serpent spam.  Like our conversation from a few months back, it would be nice to have more variety in eldar lists.  Unfortunately at that point cost it is just too good to pass up on, and too many of the eldar lists look about the same.

185 points for a Ob-Sec Wave Serpent is not a tax. Sure, if you just got the offensive shield, it wouldn't be worth it... But you get an awful lot more than that for 185.

[crono]

185 points for a Ob-Sec Wave Serpent is not a tax. Sure, if you just got the offensive shield, it wouldn't be worth it... But you get an awful lot more than that for 185.

Ahaha, well, I was considering the perspective of: acquiring access to the SS which requires at its cheapest, a unit of DA.  In that sense it is a tax.

 

But to your point, it would be an injustice to refer to the total package as a tax to playing Eldar.

[pretre]

I don't understand the last sentence. The 185 is a bonus of playing Eldar.

[Guest]

I really REALLY dont think they are that ignorant. 

I mostly agree. I do think GW's point system is well thought out.

 

That said, I really don't think they balance with game with the same local meta in mind as I play with at the GG league. Terrain selection too, has a rather large impact on the game and I'm thinking GW's balance just assumes we use the same terrain they play regularly on.

 

In example, ruins have rather specific rules which players choose to ignore, instead using area terrain rules from prior editions. There are many other such instances within the rules which players ignore or alter. Tournaments in particular, often suspend, limit, or alter rules to suit their event - how is this an issue of GW not thinking things out if the players aren't even entirely playing with GW rules (Or GW models)?

 

That said, I do think that GW purposely allows outdated books to become outdated, so the new and improved version is easier to sell.

 

EDIT: for comparison, I think MTG's mana costs are about as balanced as GW's point system. That said, MTG seems to have the local meta figured out, while GW seems to be playing in their own little world.

[pretre]

 Tournaments in particular, often suspend, limit, or alter rules to suit their event - how is this an issue of GW not thinking things out if the players aren't even entirely playing with GW rules (Or GW models)?

I think you have cause and effect backwards. In general, tournaments change stuff because of the poor balance and unclear rules; the unclear rules and poor balance are not caused by Tournaments changing rules.

[AbusePuppy]

It is technically possible to play 40K straight by the rules- it's just immensely unfun for most folks. I played a "pure" 6E tournament that was "bring anything and everything no rules changes" and it... didn't go well. Most of the matches ended in effect, if not in name, on turn 1. Similarly, I think Adepticon's "bring anything" experiment was... probably not very successful, since by all reports the winning army was so far ahead after the second-to-last round that he only had to make a token effort to win in the final one (although that's as much the fault of battle points as a tournament system as it is the rules they allowed.)

[Torg]

I mostly agree. I do think GW's point system is well thought out.

 

That said, I really don't think they balance with game with the same local meta in mind as I play with at the GG league. Terrain selection too, has a rather large impact on the game and I'm thinking GW's balance just assumes we use the same terrain they play regularly on.

 

In example, ruins have rather specific rules which players choose to ignore, instead using area terrain rules from prior editions. There are many other such instances within the rules which players ignore or alter. Tournaments in particular, often suspend, limit, or alter rules to suit their event - how is this an issue of GW not thinking things out if the players aren't even entirely playing with GW rules (Or GW models)?

 

That said, I do think that GW purposely allows outdated books to become outdated, so the new and improved version is easier to sell.

 

EDIT: for comparison, I think MTG's mana costs are about as balanced as GW's point system. That said, MTG seems to have the local meta figured out, while GW seems to be playing in their own little world.

 

I don't know… maybe your just doing it wrong… from GW's how to play the game point of view?  (just a thought)

 

 

Also - GW isn't flooded with money … books cost money… molds for plastics… LOTs of money … injection molding machines… again money.  They are not something like Apple with a billion -billion in profits.  They have to try and run to a profit quarter to year…etc.  We know from other sources (including GW) that they tend to design "cool" mini's… then design rules for them.  They don't have the time or resources to update every single codex - or rule in the game since its conception… (1988/89??).  They pick and choose - I imagine pitches are made for new things… etc.  Reality of what is popular (SM) dictates some things to updated sooner.  It's a company with idiots and or salesmen ( ) like any other… there are designers (maybe hard to deal with ones too)…. and those F'n accountants.  And of course a manager or three whom don't even know what business they are in.  On top of that - share holders…. 

 

Just trying to point out - its a messy company - just like ones we work in (or at least like mine lol).  There are IDIOTS in the system… and there are folks whom love what they do - they just wonder why they show up each day lol.

 

Anyhow - i'm rambling (nothing new)… my point is that GW does what they do - because of many factors - lots of which are unknown and without logic.  But they have a huge range and a really deep franchise of fluff and universe to pull from.  Also - more than just 40k of course.  I wouldn't put much stock into the releases and what they release when they do… let alone about rules lol.  - I think I lost my point… anyhow - just play and have fun 

 

-d

[Guest]

I think you have cause and effect backwards. In general, tournaments change stuff because of the poor balance and unclear rules; the unclear rules and poor balance are not caused by Tournaments changing rules.

I agree the intention is to create balance within the tournament, as well as to make the game practical for the event. That said, if you don't play by the rules, is it really the GW's fault that your game wasn't balanced? Isn't is more appropriate to say that the event was unbalanced?

 

As for the things that events change:

 

A time limit is a very common tournament rules change, as 40k doesn't have one in their rules. Limits on number of detachments. Restrictions on certain units or sources of certain units. Terrain selection (not quite a change, but it does greatly affect the game and is entirely within the TO's control). Terrain rules. List rating and player match-ups. Knowing the missions ahead of time is also a rules change, as 40k BRB suggests random missions. And actual rules changes/tweaks.

 

Another one is that summoned daemons are often considered part of the faction which summoned them. By BRB, they are from codex: daemons and are therefore "come the apocalypse" allies to most factions. This means the "one eye open" rule applies if they are within 6".

[pretre]

I agree the intention is to create balance within the tournament, as well as to make the game practical for the event. That said, if you don't play by the rules, is it really the GW's fault that your game wasn't balanced? Isn't is more appropriate to say that the event was unbalanced?

 

As for the things that events change:

 

A time limit is a very common tournament rules change, as 40k doesn't have one in their rules. Limits on number of detachments. Restrictions on certain units or sources of certain units. Terrain selection (not quite a change, but it does greatly affect the game and is entirely within the TO's control). Terrain rules. List rating and player match-ups. Knowing the missions ahead of time is also a rules change, as 40k BRB suggests random missions. And actual rules changes/tweaks.

 

Another one is that summoned daemons are often considered part of the faction which summoned them. By BRB, they are from codex: daemons and are therefore "come the apocalypse" allies to most factions. This means the "one eye open" rule applies if they are within 6".

As AP brought up, playing by the rules doesn't work either...

 

Also, I'm pretty sure every event I've gone to has used CTA allies for summoned daemons. I'm pretty sure AP had to roll at least once during our game at Dice Age.