Ravenguard, Tau, Eldar - Release Schedule Rumors

[Guest]

@torg: GW makes enough money where they could hire more staff if it were purely an issue of not having the time to keep all the books updated. Heck, they could even get the 40k community to balance their rules for them in a volunteer capacity. This already happens unofficially.

 

Anyway, I do think the points are balanced in 40k. I don't the rules are always balanced, and I do think that sometimes models pay points for rules which don't get used by the average player (likely because the player forgets them, or doesn't think they match his/her playstyle).

 

In example, a marine player should almost always be throwing krak grenades with one marine when shooting within 8". These can be snapfired (and overwatched with) and are often better than 2 rapid bolter shots or 1 bolt pistol. Marines are most certainly paying for those grenades, so players who forget them are devaluing their models. I love lobbing my S6 krak grenades at flyers.

[Guest]

As AP brought up, playing by the rules doesn't work either...

 

Also, I'm pretty sure every event I've gone to has used CTA allies for summoned daemons. I'm pretty sure AP had to roll at least once during our game at Dice Age.

So if playing by the rules doesn't work and you stop playing by the rules, then you should also stop complaining about the original rules not working.

 

ITC qualified summoned daemons as part of the faction/detachment which summoned them. Was in their list construction rules. I see this one played wrong by local players at the GG league, though daemon summoning itself is uncommon in the league.

[Torg]

@torg: GW makes enough money where they could hire more staff if it were purely an issue of not having the time to keep all the books updated. 

 

You know this how?  are you a multi-national manufacturer of gaming materials … and plastics?  

- I am sorry but molds (depending on the cavity sizes) are 10's of thousands…each.  Molding machines 100's of thousands each - again depending on size - close to a million.  Molding machines are technical and require competent folks to maintain the machines.  (although this is probably all done in china I guess)… resin isn't cheap (from petroleum)… electricity as well for those molding machines is huge.  I know when we ran 13 sumitomo injection molding machines in our portland plant… we were a favorite customer of PGE ( and we had a substation across the street).  10's of thousands in electric bills.  

Then the people whom work there to pack boxes …etc.  is it in china?  not sure.  Anyhow, shipping costs for all that  - isn't cheap either.

 

Then - the "brains" of the company … in the UK… well along with the "creatives" (designers of mini's , layout - book/media designers, rules/codex and media writers… artists for all the "art" beyond that)… IT to oversee it … all the equipment to do said creative work (not cheap stuff).  Then marketers… sales etc.  Customer serves… stocking/shipping warehouse folks - janitors… facility overhead etc.  Then there is the "managers"… big wigs and accountant types.  … the daily, quarterly - annual overhead in all those folks "benni's".  - property costs - taxes/ etc…  What am i forgetting?  

 

Point is… what is GW's current profit clear of all there costs/overhead world wide?  - minus R&D… and upkeep - turnover… and spoilages?  

- trying to figure out how… how much is "enough" money to balance a game for tournament play?  When GW is on the record of not making a game for said tournament play?

 

-d

[Guest]

You know this how?  are you a multi-national manufacturer of gaming materials … and plastics?  

- I am sorry but molds (depending on the cavity sizes) are 10's of thousands…each.  Molding machines 100's of thousands each - again depending on size - close to a million.  Molding machines are technical and require competent folks to maintain the machines.  (although this is probably all done in china I guess)… resin isn't cheap (from petroleum)… electricity as well for those molding machines is huge.  I know when we ran 13 sumitomo injection molding machines in our portland plant… we were a favorite customer of PGE ( and we had a substation across the street).  10's of thousands in electric bills.  

Then the people whom work there to pack boxes …etc.  is it in china?  not sure.  Anyhow, shipping costs for all that  - isn't cheap either.

 

Then - the "brains" of the company … in the UK… well along with the "creatives" (designers of mini's , layout - book/media designers, rules/codex and media writers… artists for all the "art" beyond that)… IT to oversee it … all the equipment to do said creative work (not cheap stuff).  Then marketers… sales etc.  Customer serves… stocking/shipping warehouse folks - janitors… facility overhead etc.  Then there is the "managers"… big wigs and accountant types.  … the daily, quarterly - annual overhead in all those folks "benni's".  - property costs - taxes/ etc…  What am i forgetting?  

 

Point is… what is GW's current profit clear of all there costs/overhead world wide?  - minus R&D… and upkeep - turnover… and spoilages?  

- trying to figure out how… how much is "enough" money to balance a game for tournament play?  When GW is on the record of not making a game for said tournament play?

 

-d

You could get this game fully updated with minimum wage employees. They already have the call center which takes rules questions and gives random answers, it wouldn't be a huge step to start sticking to consistent answers.

 

Or they could just officially adopt one or more of the unofficial FAQs already out there.

[pretre]

So if playing by the rules doesn't work and you stop playing by the rules, then you should also stop complaining about the original rules not working.

 

That doesn't make any sense. If something doesn't work, why would you stop complaining that it doesn't work?

[Guest]

That doesn't make any sense. If something doesn't work, why would you stop complaining that it doesn't work?

Lol...

 

You'd stop when the broken thing no longer affected you. Not using the broken rules, in example, means that the broken rules no longer affect you.

 

Though I suppose, if vindictive, you might still hold the grudge...

[AbusePuppy]

So if playing by the rules doesn't work and you stop playing by the rules, then you should also stop complaining about the original rules not working.

 

ITC qualified summoned daemons as part of the faction/detachment which summoned them. Was in their list construction rules. I see this one played wrong by local players at the GG league, though daemon summoning itself is uncommon in the league.

 

Or maybe we could ask GW to improve its rules-writing so that we can play by the rules?

 

Also, you're wrong about the summoned Daemons. In fact, they very explicitly are not part of any detachment (though they of course maintain their Codex: Chaos Daemons faction.)

 

[Guest]

Yeah, could be wrong on that ITC summoned daemon thing. Might have misread it.

Or maybe we could ask GW to improve its rules-writing so that we can play by the rules?

But that isn't complaining, it's downright constructive behavior.

[generalripphook]

Lol...

 

You'd stop when the broken thing no longer affected you. Not using the broken rules, in example, means that the broken rules no longer affect you.

 

Though I suppose, if vindictive, you might still hold the grudge...

 

Of course it still affects you. Its causing you to NOT play by that rule. The entire reason why you are playing the way you are is because you decided not to use a rule. 

[Guest]

Of course it still affects you. Its causing you to NOT play by that rule. The entire reason why you are playing the way you are is because you decided not to use a rule. 

Sounds like you hold a grudge.

[Lord Hanaur]

Lol

I get the jaded attitude and I know the many reasons why you have it.  I just don't subscribe to it personally.  I have to say I have just as much fun playing as I did when I started basically.  Maybe there's a lot less "discovery phase" in it for me now, but I play lots of codex's and really enjoy my time with the game.  So for what its worth, I feel that the gamer predilection for a perfect game is kind of unrealistic and unfair thinking.  No matter the game, everyone could improve upon it.   So the choices are to look for the problems in it and wallow in them or to find the positives and wallow in them.  I'm not saying that you ought to blindly be a fanboi.  I just think the whole thing gets a little overblown.

[pretre]

I get the jaded attitude and I know the many reasons why you have it.  I just don't subscribe to it personally.  I have to say I have just as much fun playing as I did when I started basically.  

You totally don't know what I'm saying. I'm not jaded about GW. I'm the one with the rosy picture. In fact, I love the game more now than I did at pretty much any point in the past. On the other hand, I've never thought that GW wrote tight rules or knew what they were doing.

[Lord Hanaur]

"or knew what they were doing" is the part I dont subscribe to.  Thats just too jaded for me.

[pretre]

"or knew what they were doing" is the part I dont subscribe to.  Thats just too jaded for me.

Oh come on. 

 

Look at the rules for all the hot new items over the last couple of years (heck last 10). You're saying that they intentionally made a bunch of cool new units and gave them crappy as hell rules?

 

Your version means that they intentionally made crappy rules for good models so as to not sell them. That's just too jaded for me.

[Lord Hanaur]

Oh come on. 

 

Look at the rules for all the hot new items over the last couple of years (heck last 10). You're saying that they intentionally made a bunch of cool new units and gave them crappy as hell rules?

 

Your version means that they intentionally made crappy rules for good models so as to not sell them. That's just too jaded for me.

I'm pretty sure i didn't actually say that.  Your feelings about crappy rules are yours, not mine.  They missed the mark a couple times like i said but not to the point of gross over generalizations.  But whatevs.  Just one mans opinion.

[pretre]

I'm pretty sure i didn't actually say that.  Your feelings about crappy rules are yours, not mine.  They missed the mark a couple times like i said but not to the point of gross over generalizations.  But whatevs.  Just one mans opinion.

You said they knew what they were doing. I don't accept that. If you accept that, it means they intentionally bombed new rules for cool new models. You may not have said those words, but your position extends to that. That is my point.

[Lord Hanaur]

But that characterization of my opinion simply isn't accurate.  Sorry man.

[Guest]

Oh come on. 

 

Look at the rules for all the hot new items over the last couple of years (heck last 10). You're saying that they intentionally made a bunch of cool new units and gave them crappy as hell rules?

I do think that they put a lot of thought into the rules and the models. I think the models are pointed approiatedly for the intended value(s) that the model brings to the army.

 

That said, I strongly suspect that some armies/models are given lacking rules because GW knows that the awesome models will sell just fine, despite lacking rules. Chaos Space Marines, in example, seem to be selling just fine with mostly amazing kits and several editions of really lacking rules. Likewise, I think that helldrake is a crappy kit, being able to really only strike a single pose for a flying robot-dragon. That said, it's rules are awesome and it sells very well.

 

I also think that many models are given rule applications which the players never notice, or notice late. In example, the DA dark talon/nelphilm jetfighter is a really expensive kit in both models and rules. The expensive nature of the kit, makes it often proxied with a Storm Talon. That said, the wings on the DA version of the model drop down further than the hull of storm talon. Those DA wings droop low enough where the hull of the flyer can be brought into Force Field Generator range (3" from an infantry IC), while the storm taloon is not low enough to qualify. This, to me, is an intended effect that a player looking at the rules on paper or with only a proxy, will never encounter. One of the two flyers even has a special rule that allows it to forgo moving, so it can stay in one spot. I am not certain that this alone justifies the cost of the Dark Talon/nephilim jetfighter, but it is an example of rule interactions that can be overlooked.

 

Beyond that, I do think GW makes mistakes and releases products that arn't ready. That 7th BRB seems like they really needed to proof read the finished edition to sort out things, like photos which contradict written rules (see ruins thread...). I also think that GW doesn't feel the need or obligation to admit when they make mistakes, and tends to just let the mistakes slide.

[pretre]

But that characterization of my opinion simply isn't accurate. Sorry man.

If you say 'I don't think they are that ignorant' people are going to think you meant 'I don't think they are that ignorant'.

[Guest]

If you say 'I don't think they are that ignorant' people are going to think you meant 'I don't think thy are that ignorant'.

????

[pretre]

????

With the exception of the missing e, I thought that was pretty clear.

[Guest]

With the exception of the missing e, I thought that was pretty clear.

Saw the missing "e." Still don't understand it. Not sure why modern people are going to confuse "they" with "thy"...?

[pretre]

I said:

 

 

That's not quite what AP is saying. I think AP is saying that it is a crap shoot. GW doesn't intentionally nerf/buff new units to sell models. They don't understand how rules can be good or not at a larger level. They might try to nerf/buff units, but often they just make new models and then create rules as an after thought.

 

I really REALLY dont think they are that ignorant.  I think more to the point, they are there to sell models and are attempting to point them accordingly.  The trouble I see is that they are seeing Casual games FAR outweigh tournament ones.  So in the end analysis, makeing the units do what they SEEM like they should be able to do has been the watchword for GW, and we've seen that in the newer codex's (IMO).

 

Im not as jaded as some when it comes to GW.  We can laugh about them if it makes us feel superior to do so, but they are ony human and I just think they make mistakes on occassion, and unlike Privateer and other companies, they seem to always have had a policy not to admit it.  Which is the thing I DO blame them for.

Basically, Hanaur said something and then decided that I was interpreting it incorrectly when I responded to it. (Emphasis mine)

[Guest]

Thing is, I think I agree, mostly, with what LH is saying. So I really don't understand your side of it. The "they" and "thy" thing seemed like an attack, though I didn't understand it, so was giving you a fair chance to explain your stance.

 

You said they knew what they were doing. I don't accept that. If you accept that, it means they intentionally bombed new rules for cool new models. You may not have said those words, but your position extends to that. That is my point.

I do think GW intentionally bombs rules for models that they are pretty sure will sell just fine without amazing rules. I think they intentionally give amazing rules to their more mediocre kits, to increase sales on that front.

 

As before, look at chaos space marines. They have some amazing models with crappy rules and they have some crappy models with amazing rules.

 

I think that helldrake is one such model, as I think it's kit is really limited and really only looks nice with only one on the table. Daemon prince is similar, as I think that plastic prince looks terrible and really has limited options. That said, both of these have pretty awesome rules.

 

Likewise, I think the CSM marine troops, the warp talons, and possessed have really cool model kits and really terrible rules. I think GW knows they'll sell regardless of rules and decided to make the rules lacking.

 

That said, I also think that both warp talons and the hell drake have their points appropriately given to them. Warp talons has points spent on less useful abilities, which does drag down the unit, but the points themselves seem to be spent appropriately.