fluger Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I believe we're using the ITC rules FAQ, but not the ITC army composition. Nevertheless, there is zero chance ranged D was ever going to get past the list rating committee. Just a quick question, are you on the LRC? I haven't seen a call for LRC folks yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 last year a guy (maybe more than one person) had an Aquilla Strongpoint with the vortex missles… looked like fun lol. We let that in last year because the rest of the list was complete garbage (in terms of power level) and still rated it a 3. I'd check with JMGraham, but I believe he lost every game handily. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 We let that in last year because the rest of the list was complete garbage (in terms of power level) and still rated it a 3. I'd check with JMGraham, but I believe he lost every game handily. exactly - I did talk to the person whom had the vortex missile base… and I do think he lost all the games. - lots of people were up in arms about my 3 hornets with pulse lasers last year… but they were never a factor lol. Anyhow - it isn't that big of a deal - I think. With the new Eldar Codex coming - my time to really flesh out my army is pretty short anyhow - not knowing what will change. I may be better off with the wraithwall updates. is 2 WraithKnights OTT? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 hmmm I could just bring my Eldar Cobra… -maybe… its not technically a "d"… but I am sure it will feel like it … I will have to check my book again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 So how about a Tesseract Vault? It could have a Ranged Str D shot, at least a 1 in 6 chance of it.Not sure how you'd get that in as a 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Just one opinion, but I think it could be theoretically possible to include in a 3, depending on the rest of the list. The vault is pretty underwhelming between picking a target before knowing the power, plus random power, plus LOS being from the C'Tan, meaning the vault itself blocks its own LOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 So if ranged D is banned, how does the Santic power 6 get resolved? Matters a bit for any GK players. On a side note, that Vortex Aquilla is extremely lacking. Lots of issues, but at the core, it is really expensive, it's missiles can't snapfire, and it can be destroyed in a single hit via a melta gun. As pointed out by a friend, the Aquilla strong points really need to have the super heavy rules regarding explosions just removing hull points and being immune to other building damage results. Models are just too expensive to rely on armor alone to protect them in normal games of 40k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 The point of the vortex in my case isn't to be super strong…. its random mayhem … which is fun right? no go on the cobra… at least the book I have states its a D…. so… back to the drawing board on OFCC. But 90% looking back at my WraithWall from last year. Maybe a few list modifications - but otherwise as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Yeah, the cobra was probably DOA for OFCC before this poll went up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 The point of the vortex in my case isn't to be super strong…. its random mayhem … which is fun right?. But the issue is that it would probably incur more damage to your side than the enemy, while occupying 1/4th-1/2 of your points. Not really too fun if every game results in you doing more damage to yourself than the opponent has a chance to deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 what was that list for last year that had the super heavies that were acceptable? (last year)… I had it but now I can't find it. I am sure the scorpion was on it… and the lynx. I imagine its all outdated now though. -d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 what was that list for last year that had the super heavies that were acceptable? (last year)… I had it but now I can't find it. I am sure the scorpion was on it… and the lynx. I imagine its all outdated now though. -d ITC army comp list for LVO 2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 But the issue is that it would probably incur more damage to your side than the enemy, while occupying 1/4th-1/2 of your points. Not really too fun if every game results in you doing more damage to yourself than the opponent has a chance to deal. ?… seems fun - utterly random … maybe we have different definitions of fun. Besides - I was thinking a jet bike and flyer type list… to stay out of the way lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torg Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 ITC army comp list for LVO 2015. ahhh… yes that list - the Scorpion, Cobra and Lynx were all on that list… as ok. -d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainA Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 As I understand it, the Transcendent Ctan powers and the Vortex of Doom will be ok to play as they are very random to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 As I understand it, the Transcendent Ctan powers and the Vortex of Doom will be ok to play as they are very random to get. I think I hate inconsistency in rulings more than I hate unbalanced rules.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Pax, when it comes to comp, everything is subjective. As an example, you think terminators and howling banshees are fairly pointed, I think they are wildly overcosted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Pax, when it comes to comp, everything is subjective. As an example, you think terminators and howling banshees are fairly pointed, I think they are wildly overcosted. I said banshees are good in 500pt games. Nothing about fairness for points. I do think terminators are fairly pointed, but that doesn't mean that you should field them. I just think that for the upgrades, weapons and special rules, the terminators are fairly priced. This still doesn't make them viable if your list doesn't need all those upgrades, weapons, and special rules in that package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 I said banshees are good in 500pt games. Nothing about fairness for points. As for banshee points, I honestly think they are underpriced, if we assume scout marines are fairly priced, as the two cost about the same, but the banshees have much better stock abilities. Scouts are more tool box, so some value there, perhaps, but that's it. That said, in the eldar codex, the banshees are overpriced only because of how redundant their abilities are within the codex. The eldar also lack any assault boats to make proper use of the banshees. My marines would love to have a dirt cheap power weapon unit like that, but I fully understand why the eldar players complain. If looking at the two units without the FOC or codex context, banshees are an amazing unit that is underpriced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 I do think terminators are fairly pointed, but that doesn't mean that you should field them. I just think that for the upgrades, weapons and special rules, the terminators are fairly priced. This still doesn't make them viable if your list doesn't need all those upgrades, weapons, and special rules in that package. Essentially, the issue with viewing points in this fashion (which is how I think GW does it) is it doesn't take context into account. If we agree that a tactical marine is worth 14 pts (which is rather fair, honestly), slap on the +1 attack for 10 pts, the power fist for 25 pts, and a stormbolter for 3 pts, you have a model that has only a 3+ save, but terminator gear and is 52 pts. How much is the 2+/5++ worth? Going to terminator armor on a character is 40 pts all by itself, so, even if we called it 54 pts to go from tactical marine to terminator gear, that still means that a tactical terminator is a bargain? But, the problem is that the value of that equipment on that model isn't worth the same. This is why I have an issue with the blanket cost of weapons in 40k. Why does a meltagun in the hand of a Legion of the Damned cost the same as on a basic guardsmen? Tactical terminators need SOMETHING much like how combat walkers need SOMETHING to bring them to par with other similar units. I'm not sure what that would be outside of a steep points drop, but any person that cares about competitive gaming will tell you the same. As for banshee points, I honestly think they are underpriced, if we assume scout marines are fairly priced, as the two cost about the same, but the banshees have much better stock abilities. Scouts are more tool box, so some value there, perhaps, but that's it. That said, in the eldar codex, the banshees are overpriced only because of how redundant their abilities are within the codex. The eldar also lack any assault boats to make proper use of the banshees. My marines would love to have a dirt cheap power weapon unit like that, but I fully understand why the eldar players complain. If looking at the two units without the FOC or codex context, banshees are an amazing unit that is underpriced. See, I disagree. The thing that will always make banshees inferior without some more buffs beyond what they have is that they are S and T 3. For a melee unit, this is awful. The DO have high initiative, but that is crippled by no grenades. They have basically the minimum standard for WS for a melee-oriented unit. The only thing that they have over scouts is two things, both gear. The shuriken pistol and power sword are both better than bolt pistol and basic CCW. But what the scouts bring to the table is infiltrate and scout as well as krak grenades. This means that you don't have to pay a vehicle tax to put them in the enemies face, which keeps them cheap, and they can actually DO something to vehicles, which makes them more versatile. Not having fleet is compensated by move through cover and, in the great scheme of things, WS3 at I4 is better than WS4 at I1 (assuming they are charging into cover). WS3 isn't THAT bad compared to WS3 in most relevant situations. Honestly, if banshees were part of the SM codex for some reason, they STILL would never be taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Bloodletters are like howling banshees. People generally hate bloodletters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 See, I disagree. The thing that will always make banshees inferior without some more buffs beyond what they have is that they are S and T 3. For a melee unit, this is awful. The DO have high initiative, but that is crippled by no grenades. They have basically the minimum standard for WS for a melee-oriented unit. The only thing that they have over scouts is two things, both gear. The shuriken pistol and power sword are both better than bolt pistol and basic CCW. But what the scouts bring to the table is infiltrate and scout as well as krak grenades. This means that you don't have to pay a vehicle tax to put them in the enemies face, which keeps them cheap, and they can actually DO something to vehicles, which makes them more versatile. Not having fleet is compensated by move through cover and, in the great scheme of things, WS3 at I4 is better than WS4 at I1 (assuming they are charging into cover). WS3 isn't THAT bad compared to WS3 in most relevant situations. Honestly, if banshees were part of the SM codex for some reason, they STILL would never be taken. No grenades...? really, that's the complaint? What about those banshee masks? -5 to enemy initiative means that banshees strike at the same time as most enemies, even while charging through cover. As for speed, banshees may lack transports and infiltrate, but they have fleet, battle focus, and +3" to run moves. They really zip across the table. Banshees also have a character upgrade for the same 10pts, but unlike scouts who only gain a point of leadership, an attack, 1 WS and 1 BS, the banshee one also gains 3+ armor AND better intiative in addition to stats that meet or beat all the scout vet stats (aside from strength and toughness). I'd really like a PA marine leading my scout squads... I do agree that the banshees can't damage vehicles and it hurts, but I don't think the squad is lacking. I will note that the disarming strike option for the banshee exarch powers can be used against super heavy walkers which are characters (like warlord imperial knight senshals...). Wouldn't help against stomp, but I love the idea of disarming the D melee weapon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Bloodletters are like howling banshees. People generally hate bloodletters. And THIS is so true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Striking at the same time as your opponent is not an advantage when you're t3 and wearing cruddy armor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Striking at the same time as your opponent is not an advantage when you're t3 and wearing cruddy armor. Well, if you're charging your banshees into cover, it would have to be a hell of a hail mary to begin with, so might as well take out what you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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