Random House Rules

[WestRider]

Because I'm bored and they were just sort of popping into my head:

 

Imperial Guard Renegades:
Any Astra Militarum Detachment may be designated as Renegades. If you choose to do so, select one of the following options:
- Chaos Renegades: The Detachment is Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines (including Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter), and Allies of Convenience with Chaos Daemons.
- Gue’vesa: The Detachment is Battle Brothers with Tau Empire (including Farsight Enclaves).
- In either case, the Detachment becomes Come the Apocalypse with regard to other Forces of the Imperium, and all Forces of the Imperium gain Hatred against all Units in the Detachment.

Expanding Tau Tech (Yeah, I know they don't need it, but these seem like directions the Tau might explore, especially mounting Ion weaponry on Broadsides):
- Heavy Ion Rifle: Replaces the TL Heavy Rail Rifle on Broadsides. 48” S7 AP2 Heavy 2, Twin-Linked OR 48” S8 AP2 Heavy 1 Twin-Linked, Gets Hot, Blast
- Heavy Missile Pod: Replaces Heavy Burst Cannon on Riptides. 48” S8 AP3 Heavy 4. Nova Charge boosts to 72” Range, Rending, Gets Hot

- Rail Cannon: Replaces HBC on Riptides. As Railhead, but no Submunitions. On a Nova Charge, it Gets Hot, but gains Sunder and successful Cover Saves (including from Jink) must be re-rolled.

Better guns for Special Characters
- Abbadon: Give him the same gun Horus had on the Talon: 24” S5 AP3 Assault 3 Twin-Linked
- Logan Grimnar: 24” S4 AP4 Assault 4, Helfrost

Ordnance Weapons
- Add +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table. Because it’s stupid that Battle Cannon and Earthshaker Cannon rounds can’t blow up a Tank.

Plasma Cannon (and other similar weapons like the Executioner): Add Focused mode: S7 AP2, Gets Hot, no Blast, adds 12" of Range, as many shots as it would normally have. Because Plasma Cannon should be able to do something to Flyers.

[Guest]

Tau should get a "Zero" upgrade for one of their flyers which allows it to make kamikaze attacks.

 

More unaligned Chaos Daemons. Like the Furies, soulgrinders and princes can be given dedication, but unaligned in the unit entry prior to upgrades. Unaligned troops and elite daemons would be really logical additions to that army.

 

Remove the Ordnance rule from the game and replace with the primary rule - no more snapfire requirement for vehicles with ordnance.

 

Remove Get's Hot from plasma weapons, or adjust their points down, as at present plasma's get hot rule seems more about fluff/tradition and less about balance.

 

Make Pistol upgrade weapons cheaper.

 

Nerf Grav weapons.....

[VonVilkee]

West rider, really like the ig thing!

[InfestedKerrigan]

Death By Stereo: Score 1 point if you kill an Elite or HQ unit with Sonic Weaponry, 3 Points if it also belongs to the Blood Angels Faction.

[WestRider]

Some ideas for improving Terminators:

- T5 base

- native FNP. If gained from another source, add +1

- Heavy Duty Ammo Feeds: Weapons fired by Terminators fire one more shot than they normally would

 

Not all three, but I figure the firepower improvement plus one of the durability improvements would bring Tactical Termies back up into the useful range. There would need to be some fiddling with Points for some of the upgrades (particularly Combi-Meltas, for Terminators who have access to those), and the Cyclone should maybe be dropped back to Heavy 1 base if the HDAF is in effect, since it's pretty good as it stands.

 

Also, bring back the Plasma Blaster that UM Termie Characters could get in 2nd. Make it a Relic, maybe 24" S7 AP2 Assault 3, Master Crafted, Gets Hot.

[Guest]

Some ideas for improving Terminators:

- T5 base

- native FNP. If gained from another source, add +1

- Heavy Duty Ammo Feeds: Weapons fired by Terminators fire one more shot than they normally would

 

Not all three, but I figure the firepower improvement plus one of the durability improvements would bring Tactical Termies back up into the useful range. There would need to be some fiddling with Points for some of the upgrades (particularly Combi-Meltas, for Terminators who have access to those), and the Cyclone should maybe be dropped back to Heavy 1 base if the HDAF is in effect, since it's pretty good as it stands.

 

Also, bring back the Plasma Blaster that UM Termie Characters could get in 2nd. Make it a Relic, maybe 24" S7 AP2 Assault 3, Master Crafted, Gets Hot.

Honestly think base termies are fine as is. The change I would make, would be to allow every tactical termy to upgrade for a heavy weapon.

 

Either adding access to the DA plasma cannon option would be smart, or could give a grav cannon access to keep the "diversity" of the codex.

 

In all honesty, I would really like to see the DA absorbed into the new codex SM. DA have some neat options that would be much more practical with access to the full SM range. Could still make a DA supplement codex for the hardcore DA fans.

[AbusePuppy]

I think the best way to improve Terminators isn't to mess with their base stats, it's to take the GK/CSM example and simply make them not horribly expensive. 31pts base for Power Weapon/Storm Bolter, 5-7pts to upgrade to a Power Fist, and options for Combiweapons is a good start. Giving them better choices for heavy weapons would also go a long ways- yes, I get it GW, Cyclone Launchers and Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers are "traditional" and all that nonsense, but being able to get a Multimelta on them would be HUGE. Good options make for good units.

[WestRider]

That would certainly work, but I guess I sort of just miss when Termies were absolute monsters. I didn't like the details of how it worked out rules-wise in 2nd, but I did like the power differential between them and Tactical Marines back then.

 

I would love more flexible options for them. Power Weapons instead of Fists to save Points, more ability to mix shooty and LC/Hammernators, and getting a Multi-Melta in there would be awesome, yeah.

[fluger]

I think they should have something akin to the wolf charm thing from 4th edition Space Wolves (or something...).  Basically, they ignore the first failed armor save per phase.  Potentially expand that to every weapon type or initiative step.  

 

Basically, to me, terminators should excel at not being wiped out by massed attacks.  I look at terminators with my Orks or IG and just shrug, because I'm going to kill them when they roll them ones.  Giving them something like that would mean that they would be MUCH harder to kill with non AP2 attacks, which would really make sense given their fluff standing.  

[generalripphook]

How about two wounds each or like Abusepuppy said, make em cheaper. 

[WestRider]

I think they should have something akin to the wolf charm thing from 4th edition Space Wolves (or something...).  Basically, they ignore the first failed armor save per phase.  Potentially expand that to every weapon type or initiative step.  

 

Basically, to me, terminators should excel at not being wiped out by massed attacks.  I look at terminators with my Orks or IG and just shrug, because I'm going to kill them when they roll them ones.  Giving them something like that would mean that they would be MUCH harder to kill with non AP2 attacks, which would really make sense given their fluff standing.  

I was thinking about something like that, but it then makes them too resilient against a lot of the mid-ranged firepower, and even more likely to just get really jammy and shrug off an entire Army's worth of shooting, like I see them do occasionally anyhow. I figured T5 and/or FNP would help mitigate the massed fire issue.

[fluger]

How about two wounds each or like Abusepuppy said, make em cheaper. 

Two wounds is good, that's what makes Mega Nobz so good IMO.  They shrug off small arms fire like nothing else, but fold up like a cheap tent to S8 AP2.  

[fluger]

I was thinking about something like that, but it then makes them too resilient against a lot of the mid-ranged firepower, and even more likely to just get really jammy and shrug off an entire Army's worth of shooting, like I see them do occasionally anyhow. I figured T5 and/or FNP would help mitigate the massed fire issue.

 

Maybe.  

[generalripphook]

The FNP would be a good addition, T5 would not because then with chaos Terminators of nurgle, now they are T6

[WestRider]

The FNP would be a good addition, T5 would not because then with chaos Terminators of nurgle, now they are T6

Nurgle Bikers are already T6, and I don't see them being particularly problematic. If your Army can't handle a bunch of T6+ with good saves, it can't handle Nids, GK, Tau, or Eldar either.

[fluger]

I still think something based on the saving throw as opposed to altering the statline would be better.  

[crono]

I'm being compelled to the FNP camp, but the funny thing is that I always thought of terminator armor as what elite shock troops would use, requires greater training and skill.  Which for me was, translates to being stronger and tougher:  so toughness 5 and FC.

[WestRider]

Space Wolf Great Company Formation:

- Allow any of the Special Character Lords (Except Grimnar, of course) to replace the normally required Wolf Lord. If Harald DeathWolf is chosen, you may take a Pack of TWC instead of the usually required WG Pack. Possibly also allow the Formation to take a Rune Priest and a Wolf Priest, even tho those aren't strictly part of the Great Company (Or an extra WGBL?), because the Formation benefits are in large part centered around ICs Joined to Troops Units. Or maybe just allow Characters from a Wolves Unleashed Detachment to count as well as those from the Formation, since they have basically the same Rule.

 

I think the BA Battle Company could use the same basic tweak, but it's less of a deal there, because it just means you can take Tycho :P

[Prophecy]

Death By Stereo: Score 1 point if you kill an Elite or HQ unit with Sonic Weaponry, 3 Points if it also belongs to the Blood Angels Faction.

*stares at his large sonic marine army* .......No......

[InfestedKerrigan]

*stares at his large sonic marine army* .......No......

 

[Guest]

That would certainly work, but I guess I sort of just miss when Termies were absolute monsters. I didn't like the details of how it worked out rules-wise in 2nd, but I did like the power differential between them and Tactical Marines back then.

 

Ever tried the DW Knights? Much of the codex is lacking on the TDA end, but the DW Knights are combat monsters. Main distinctions (sort of a summary of non-DA abilities):

 

Unit is WS5 and has Hammer of Wrath. Squad lead has +1 attacks (for 3 base swings). Each member of the unit is +1 toughness while in base contact with 2 other members of the unit or TDA ICs (applies to TDA ICs). Unit is Fearless. Unit has Precision Strikes in melee.

 

Unit is +35pts over a tactical terminator squad, but I think most of that cost is in the DA specific weapons and abilities (Smite mode power mauls+SS, power flail+SS sarge, turn 1 DS, and preferred enemy CSM).

 

I think if you applied the above to the tactical terminators, it would go a good distance to making the tactical or assault terminators into something monstrous again.

 

I'd also consider adding apothecary access to every TDA unit. +30pts in the DA codex, doesn't seem too unreasonable. No loss of weapons and becomes a character.

 

Oh, and I think the terminator sergeant should have relic weapon access.

[WestRider]

Yeah, I've run DW Knights. They're still not really even at the level I feel 40pt Termies should hit, let alone worth the 46 that they want for them. And they do nothing to fill the gap in useful shooty Terminator options.

[Guest]

Another house rule:

-Extreme range barrage units may opt to not deploy on the table. They function as if in permanent reserves, but may shoot each turn in the shooting phase as if stationary and lacking LoS to their target.

 

Extreme range is defined as having a weapon with longer range than any dimension on the table you are playing on. Typically, longer than distance between opposite corners.

 

Idea is that barrage weapon is deployed too far from the engagement to be countered.

 

Yeah, I've run DW Knights. They're still not really even at the level I feel 40pt Termies should hit, let alone worth the 46 that they want for them. And they do nothing to fill the gap in useful shooty Terminator options.

Shooty terminators are still a hybrid of melee, durability, and shooting. Perhaps you're looking for something that isn't a terminator? Like a centurion.

 

I'm trying to picture what you are seeking, but it's difficult. I also think that terminators are priced according to their abilities. Perhaps you are forgetting that tactical terminators have chapter traits? They can have a few more options than the stock tactical terminator (Like Iron hands with 6+ FNP).

 

If looking cheaper terminators, the GK have theirs at 165pts for the base 5-man troops unit. Same stats, but GK stuff instead of SM weapon options/traits. GK terms are the only terms with frag grenades.

 

Personally, I think all terminator variants would greatly benefit from smaller base squad sizes. Like the paladins. Sergeant and 2 normals without heavy weapon access for the cost of 3 models. At the 5-man level, give them access to 2 heavy weapons, and 2 more at the 10-man level.

 

The 3-man TDA units are really nice from the standpoint of transportation with attached ICs.

 

Anyway, my personal hope is that DA get absorbed into the SM codex. Then the terminator unit entry get's blended with the two DA terminator weapon sets, resulting in just one TDA entry with lots and lots of weapon options. Probably won't happen, as GW seems to enjoy using the DA as their codex: "test SM."

 

A "teleport assault" rule, not unlike the drop pod assault, rule wouldn't be a terrible idea to make them more viable. The 1/2 of the teleporting units deployed to reserves will arrive turn 1, others can enter via normal DS.

 

Though, actually, what the TDA units need with eldar ranged D on the scene, we need vortex grenade access.....!!!!

[WestRider]

You are the only person I know who doesn't think that Tactical Terminators are grossly overpriced. I haven't seen them on the table at least since 5th Ed, even in more casual situations. I am fully aware of all the factors you mention, and they're still not enough to make that worth 40 Points per Model.

[Guest]

You are the only person I know who doesn't think that Tactical Terminators are grossly overpriced. I haven't seen them on the table at least since 5th Ed, even in more casual situations. I am fully aware of all the factors you mention, and they're still not enough to make that worth 40 Points per Model.

How to explain...

 

Tactical terminators are worth 40pts each.

 

The squad rules themselves, are horribly lacking and the squad is not worth 200pts.

 

But the individual tactical terminators are still worth 40pts each.

 

Does that explain my stance?