Random House Rules

[InfestedKerrigan]

So 1 is worth 40, but 5 isn't worth 200.  Sorry, no bulk discount.  :(

[Guest]

So 1 is worth 40, but 5 isn't worth 200.  Sorry, no bulk discount.  :(

It isn't that.

 

40pts for a vet marine stat SB, fist, 2+/5++, heavy weapon access, an optional chainfist upgrade, and deep strike is a fair price and would be a steal without the bulky and unable to sweep limitation.

 

The squad introduces the required sword+SB character, the 1 in 5 heavy weapons, and puts them in a size where they can't embark in 10-man transports (like pods or small buildings or land raiders) with an attached character. I dislike these limitations and I think they are what make the tactical terminators inadequate.

[Guest]

On a side note, if you field a full 10 of them, then use combat squads to create two units, they are considerably more viable, though still not viable. Something like this:

 

Squad A

Sergeant

2 heavy weapons

2 normals

 

Squad B

5 normals

 

Squad A benefits from the double heavy weapons and the sergeant to absorb heavy weapon directed hits. Squad B benefits from not having a character at all in the squad, as they don't have to worry about challenges.

 

I did this a bit in 5th. It can be more effective, but still isn't enough most of time. I should not have to bring 10, just to have a 5-man with two heavy weapons. 

[WestRider]

Again, I see what you're saying, but having messed around with the more flexible CSM and WG Terminators, I still can't agree. Their per-Point durability and firepower are just too lacking. The closest thing I've seen to viable Tactical Terminators are WG Termies mostly with Storm Shield/Storm Bolter, a Heavy Weapon, and one or two TH/SS dudes mixed in, depending on Squad size. Even those are kind of lacking, but since the average price AFTER all upgrades comes to around 40 ppm, it's somewhat better. They still die off far too easily to massed small arms fire, and are kind of lacking in firepower of their own, tho.

[fluger]

How many points would they have to be if they had a 2+ re-rollable armor save built in?  

 

Also, I love to fondly remember how absurdly tough they were in 2nd edition.  3+ save but on 2d6!  Of course, that was back when armor saves were modified so a krak missile dropped that by -6 so they saved on a 9+. 

[WestRider]

Even as an Armour Save, rather than an Invul 2+ re-rollable is pretty brutal. It would also make the gap between their durability against torrent fire and quality fire even bigger, and they honestly need help against both.

[fluger]

Meh, I don't have an issue with AP2 cutting them down like chaff.  It SHOULD, these are weapons designed to penetrate TANKS.  That being said, their resistance to small arms fire should be significantly better IMO.  Maybe do the frontline gaming things of 2+/4+ reroll? 

[WestRider]

Yeah, Plasmaguns are supposed to be able to cut through Tanks. But Terminator Armour was developed from suits that were used to work inside of operating plasma reactors. It's also supposed to excel at the kind of close quarters combat where Meltaguns and such are a real issue.

 

Going to T5 with FNP would get them pretty close to a 2+/4+ Reroll, and still give pretty good protection against heavier stuff.

 

Part of the issue is that it's so easy for other Models to pick up 5+ Cover that a 5++ doesn't really mean very much in a lot of situations. It seems wrong to see that much armour still leave them no better off than a grot.

[fluger]

The ap system has never made sense imo

[Guest]

Part of the issue is that it's so easy for other Models to pick up 5+ Cover that a 5++ doesn't really mean very much in a lot of situations. It seems wrong to see that much armour still leave them no better off than a grot.

It matters in melee.

 

I otherwise agree that cover is mostly better than 5++ saves on terminators. That said, tactical terminators can acquire a 2+ or 3+ cover save without too much difficulty. That would be ruins and a techmarine for 3+ cover, then stealth for 2+ (night fight, a darkshroud or the conquer of cities warlord trait).

 

Really, all of the TDA stats mostly matter in melee. At range, they are basically a veteran unit with relentless and deep strike. If keeping them at range, terminators are almost always outclassed by other units. This is not new. Basically, tactical terminators are designed for the simple tactic of arriving at short-mid range, then moving towards melee range while shooting. This is the same tactic if arriving via land raider or deep strike. They really only do this one tactic.

 

If there is an issue with tactical terminators, it's that the tactic they do well is just so easy to counter in 7th. Plus, pods make the Deep strike seem slow, as it doesn't arrive until turn 2+.

[WestRider]

My point exactly. At range, any number of things are better. In CC, Hammernators are better. Tacs don't balance both well enough to function as an all-rounder.

 

With regard to cover, any situation where you can arrange a good Cover Save for Terminators, you could do the same for regular Marines at a third of the cost per Model. Or Guardsmen, at an eighth.

[Guest]

Hammernators are better.

Yes and no. If the opponent lacks armor save denial, or can bypass both armor and invulnerable saves in melee, then the hammernators and the terminators really aren't any different.

 

I think the real kick in the teeth for tactical terminators is the assault centurions, which can be stock with Hurricanes and assault drills for a cheaper unit cost with both more wounds and more attacks in initiative order.

 

Though, with assault centurions, it hardly matters if the opponent has higher initiative and ap2 melee.

 

Rock paper scissors.

 

I think the tactical terminators embody the all comer's list concept, being not very good at anything, but amazing at being above average everywhere. Unfortunately, this does mean a tourney list, one that is typically overspecialized, will just massacre tactical terminators because they are amazing somewhere, while the tactical terminators are just above average.

[Guest]

I haven't seen them on the table at least since 5th Ed, even in more casual situations. .

Oh, side note is that the tactical terminators really don't have very impressive models. The kit is really expensive, has very few extra bits (like head swaps), and doesn't include all their upgrade options (especially if using the kit to make a 5-man squad into a 10-man).

 

I do like what GW is doing with BA, SW and DA having their own TDA kit. Very much solves the issues of a very lacking tactical terminator kit.

[Guest]

So for other house rules, I'd like to change warp speed to the following:

 

Warp Speed

Warp Charge 1

Warp Speed is a blessing that target's the Psyker. Models in the psyker's unit gain +1 initiative and fleet. In the assault phase, weapons wielded by models in the psyker's unit lose the unwiedly rule (if they had it).

[Stoobert]

House rules?  House objectives!  Like Gin Rummy for Penalties, with real physical punishment for the players.  You play 40k, you know in your heart your are a masochist.      

 

Fail to do X, receive physical pain Y.   Such as a shot of pickle juice, soy sauce and cayenne pepper.  Hold an ice pack on your ____ for 90 seconds, etc.

[Guest]

@stoobert: I do kinda like the idea of maelstrom objectives with penalties for non-completion.

[WestRider]

Working on my SW Razorbacks for OFCC, and I was reminded that the TL Helfrost Cannon from the StormWolf fits perfectly on the Razorback mount. That should totally be an option for them, same price as the other upgraded turrets, I guess.

[AbusePuppy]

Knowing the way GW prices Razorback upgrades, it's probably like +55pts or something stupid like that.

[Sugarlessllama]

Honestly think base termies are fine as is. The change I would make, would be to allow every tactical termy to upgrade for a heavy weapon.

 

Either adding access to the DA plasma cannon option would be smart, or could give a grav cannon access to keep the "diversity" of the codex.

 

In all honesty, I would really like to see the DA absorbed into the new codex SM. DA have some neat options that would be much more practical with access to the full SM range. Could still make a DA supplement codex for the hardcore DA fans.

 

I would go with a house rule where a DA Captain in Terminator armor, or on a Bike would make either Termies, or Bikes troops. I think it keeps with the fluff on the DA, and allows for people playing successor chapters to make their own HQs rather than renaming the named character HQs.

[Guest]

That Ork book has a relic Bike option. I'd love if sammy's bike was a relic option instead of being forced to field Sammy in the 200pt build. Jetbikes for all....

[pretre]

Too bad the ork relic doesn't unlock bike troops.

[WestRider]

Knowing the way GW prices Razorback upgrades, it's probably like +55pts or something stupid like that.

Yeah, and the Helfrost Cannon is overpriced on Dreads as is. Actually, I think the current upgrade prices for the Razorback are about right, it's the base cost that's too high. If it were 35-40 for a BolterBack, an extra 20 for the upgraded guns would probably work out about right.

[Guest]

Too bad the ork relic doesn't unlock bike troops.

No, but having a DA captain unlock bike troops if on a bike, and then having a relic jetbike option, it would replace the need for Sammy and still be Awesome.

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, and the Helfrost Cannon is overpriced on Dreads as is. Actually, I think the current upgrade prices for the Razorback are about right, it's the base cost that's too high. If it were 35-40 for a BolterBack, an extra 20 for the upgraded guns would probably work out about right.

 

40 for a Bolterback would feel... alright, I think. Realistically speaking, a Bolterback is about as good as a Rhino, since the superior gun is compensated by the lack of fire points and transport capacity. Free swap for the HF and +20 or +25 for the other weapons would feel about right to me; with as fragile as vehicles are now, paying 70+ for an AV11 chassis is not an exciting prospect.

[pretre]

40 for a Bolterback would feel... alright, I think. Realistically speaking, a Bolterback is about as good as a Rhino, since the superior gun is compensated by the lack of fire points and transport capacity. Free swap for the HF and +20 or +25 for the other weapons would feel about right to me; with as fragile as vehicles are now, paying 70+ for an AV11 chassis is not an exciting prospect.

They should go to SOB pricing with a 60 point Razorback with any weapon. Heck, Shield of Faith is apparently worth 5 points so 55 points with any weapon would be fair.