Random House Rules

[Guest]

How many points are they? Couldn't you take fcultists? ;)

Same base cost as paladins....

[pretre]

Same base cost as paladins....

How many points are they? Couldn't you just talke cultists?

[Guest]

How many points are they? Couldn't you just talke cultists?

Sorry, old habbit of not listing points online. 55pts base per model. I think cultists are pretty similar in cost.

 

63pts each with mark of tzeentch, less for the other marks.

 

As for cultists Vs multilators, I guess it depends if you want a unit that CAN kill things or not....

[Guest]

Main weak point on the multilator is that they are squads of 1-3, which makes them too small for any deathstar usage.

[pretre]

Cultists give up blood points and probably have the same chance of doing damage.

[WestRider]

They'd be 60 Points with the Mark of Khorne. Maybe a bit more in DK, because they'd also get Daemon of Khorne instead of just Daemon.

 

And yes, I could get Culties (58 Points for a minimum Squad), but minimum Squads of Culties are pretty ignorable if my opponent is trying to deny me Blood Tithe. Mutilators aren't. Culties also can't Deep Strike right up in my opponent's face.

 

Now I really want to get someone to let me House Rule this and give it a try. #mutilatorshame ;)

[AbusePuppy]

Flexibility and maniplulating that "daemon" rule. If you don't value melee flexibility, then at least you've got that daemon rule manipulation. Basic cursed earth for a 4++, and mark of tzeentch for a 3++. All while not losing any attacks like a terminator would for that stormshield.

 

The Daemon rule is as much a liability as it is an advantage (assuming you ignore the 5++ part of it, since Terminators have that anyways.) Sure you can Cursed Earth yourself up... but your opponent can Banish you right back down.

[Guest]

The Daemon rule is as much a liability as it is an advantage (assuming you ignore the 5++ part of it, since Terminators have that anyways.) Sure you can Cursed Earth yourself up... but your opponent can Banish you right back down.

It's a liability against GK and units kitted to decimate daemons, but Banishment isn't a real threat. Deal is that Cursed earth is a blessing which targets the psyker and affects all daemons within an aura, which makes it both difficult to dispel and very useful on the field with other daemon units. Meanwhile, banishment is a single target malediction, so not only will the target benefit from psychic defenses (like having a psyker in the squad), but opponent will have to pick each unit and deliver a separate casting of banishment on each unit.

 

Been running GK against Daemons lately, and banishment is horribly lacking when compared to cursed earth. GK have loads of other abilities which are amazing against daemons, but banishment is a waste of psychic dice, most of the time.

 

Two possible exceptions would be the GK warlord trait that allows casting banishment on 2+ and Brother Captain Stern's modified banishment which affects all daemons within 12" instead of a single target.

 

As for non-GK using banishment, I have yet to see it at all. Cursed earth is definitely worth attempting despite the risk of perils on any double.

[Guest]

Anyway, with just Mark of Khorne and single man units, Cursed Earth isn't really doing much. So, sort of off topic. I forgot that OP was talking about daemonkin of khorne exclusivly when mentioning mutilators.

 

Mark of Tzeentch can totally rock mutilators (or warp talons) in a max unit with an attached psyker with cursed earth. Could also get allied/summoned daemons to do the casting, since it affects an area.

[VonVilkee]

So was thinking what would help power swords stack up against other choices in the power weapon world. In any instance the strength as user ap 3 would stay.

 

Needs a little something but not much maybe well balanced or something and you add your initiative to your weapon skill.

 

The sword is a wonderfully adaptable weapon able to inflict hits easily, this would also make it a bit of a defense option in challenges...

 

A parry save in combat would be an interesting option.

[AbusePuppy]

Needs a little something but not much

 

add your initiative to your weapon skill.

 

That's more than "a little something." That's doubling the WS of every model with a Sword, basically.

 

The main problem with the Power Sword is that it's a generalist weapon, but the Power Maul is actually a better generalist weapon. The Maul kills tanks, reliably wounds MCs, and has Concussive- pretty much no matter the situation, it's doing something useful. The Power Sword is great for taking on MEQs, but anytime you aren't facing Marines something else is better- and sometimes a lot better.

 

Some kind of Parry effect could work, but it would need to be tuned carefully to avoid the problem 2E had where the Power Sword (or any other weapon with Parry) was so vastly better that you never saw anything else. -1WS for the opponent in a challenge? Or maybe just tone down the Maul and Axe a bit (make the Axe two-handed, make the Maul only +1Str.)

 

Of course, all of this falls within the greater issue of melee weapons in general being overcosted.

[WestRider]

Part of the reason Parries were so powerful in 2nd was because of the "Opposed roll, winner takes all" Combat system, and the way that 1s and 6s ballooned the results. If each Parry just allowed you to force an Opponent to re-roll a single Hit (maybe only in Challenges?), that wouldn't be nearly as overwhelming.

[InfestedKerrigan]

How about making the Sword Pose guy from the Grey Knights a Power Sword standard?  Doesn't he have a defensive and offensive stance?

[WestRider]

How about making the Sword Pose guy from the Grey Knights a Power Sword standard?  Doesn't he have a defensive and offensive stance?

Gaining Smash or re-roll all Saves could get kind of ridiculous on someone with a better statline than the Bro Champ.

 

I was also thinking about bringing back Parries or something for Lightning Claws, give them something to compete with the Storm Shield.

[InfestedKerrigan]

"Unrelenting Fury" Models in base contact with a Model Equipped with a Pair of Lightning Claws suffers -1 A.  This effect is cumulative, but affected models may never have their Total Attacks reduced below 1.

[WestRider]

I was thinking more just something like: For each Lightning Claw in a Unit, you may force your Opponent to re-roll a single successful To-Hit Roll against that Unit in each Assault Phase.

 

Power Swords would be more or less the same.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Wouldn't it be cool if we could give our Veteran Squads a USR to represent the special training and skills it has received, like Furious Charge, or Infiltrate or Tank Hunter or... oh.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I was thinking more just something like: For each Lightning Claw in a Unit, you may force your Opponent to re-roll a single successful To-Hit Roll against that Unit in each Assault Phase.

 

Power Swords would be more or less the same.

 

I guess if Power Swords weren't changing, that'd be alright for LitClaws.  So 3 Pairs of Lit Claws would force up to 6 Re-Rolls?

 

That feels like a good Sword Parry rule, too. 

[WestRider]

Power Swords would get the same Parry Rule, I meant. Alternately, Power Swords could provide +1 WS, to represent how they're more wieldy than Axes or Mauls.

 

And yeah, your example is how it would work.

[VonVilkee]

On the whole add initiative to ws thing I figured it would help Sargents hit better and get a little bit of defense. Needing to have ws double plus one before a 5+ to hit is required. While the number seems like a huge swing there are actually very few single pip changes depending on situation. Also the weapon skill changes would help in a challenge far more.

[Ser Warwick]

I think forcing a reroll sounds viable, power swords are definitely one of the least appealing ccws, so they could use a bonus to match how cool they look.

 

I think a ws boost could be also be viable, but on that note and in the spirit of wishlisting rules I think close combat would be faster, fluffier and more fun if they used the to wounds chart when comparing stats.

 

It may have been said before but WS currently feels like a bit of a dump stat, wherein some units pay a premium just so that they can hit on 3s. This is great compared to 4s, but its better when big numbers on stats mean something. WS seems like the softest stat to me.

 

A few others I would prefer playing:

-Charge range=initiative+d6

Calculated at a unit's base initiative, this would give you a better charge window that also reflects the abilities of the unit.

 

-Pick your psychic powers, show opponent, these are your powers.

Ideally this requires balanced powers, which is its own problem. This would make pregame faster, allow for more reliable planning of tactics, and allow for more consistent narrative focus with custom characters.

 

-Pick your warlord trait, show opponent, this is your trait.

Same issues as above, but still better than random IMHO. Adds a further way to reflect the fluff of your custom characters.

[Doug_L]

I was very surprised this edition when they broke down power weapons into swords, axes, staves etc. and then made every other option so much more viable than the sword. +1WS would work for me - it doesn't really impact anyone else hitting you but now your odds of hitting go up dramatically against most stuff in the game but you'll suffer to wound, which should be the case.

[Guest]

You keep going on about this, I like the swords. AP3 with no funny modifiers. It pairs with pistols and accepts strength increases (like hammer hand or furious charge).

 

Lightning claw is the power sword for when you don't have a pistol. For example, my sternguard sergeant would take a bolter (or combi-plas) and a lightning claw.

 

Power mauls are neat, but most of the time, they are redundant with Krak Grenades. They leave the marine without means to deny 3+ armor.

 

The Axe, on the other hand, is a weak power fist. Every time I field the axe, I wish I had taken a sword or a fist.

 

I do like the concept of the power lance, though I'll admit that I've never actually fielded one.

 

That said, all the above is regarding MEQ armies. My INQ and AM absolutely hate the power sword, because S3 needs to wound more than it needs to deny armor.

[Guest]

That subject of parry is an interesting one. What about a parry bonus to WS that only applies when the opponent rolls to hit, not when you roll to hit. Even just a +1 WS when the opponent rolls to hit would have a notable effect for GEQ vs MEQ (Guardsmen Sergeant would be hit on 4s instead of 3s with a parry bonus).

 

Though regarding options that need tweaks, that Combat shield is just too expensive compared to the storm shield. My DA company vets have the choice of storm shield for +10pts per model (3++, no bonus paired weapons) or a combat shield +5pts per model (6++). Neither swap for weapons. 

[WestRider]

<snip>

 

That said, all the above is regarding MEQ armies. My INQ and AM absolutely hate the power sword, because S3 needs to wound more than it needs to deny armor.

This is also only in regards to Squad Leader types. Things like Honour Guard, Vanguard Vets, or Chaos/SW Terminators, where most or all of the Squad will have some sort of Power Weapon change the equation considerably too. This is one of the places I find the Power Maul to really come into its own, when it'll let you pile on the S6 Attacks in quantities much greater than you could with Krak Grenades. Then have a couple of Swords/Axes/Fists or whatever for more specialized purposes.

 

I'd also note that the Power Sword is only better than the Maul against 3+ Armour. Yes, that's probably the single most common Save in the Game, but still, there are plenty of situations where you're hitting some other Armour Save, and then the two are exactly the same except for the +2 S on the Maul.