for funzies: scatter laser ratio

[intrizic]

  Let's not even get into the PLATFORM they are on.  

 

I intentionally didn't mention that in the OP...there are SOO many bonuses for being a jetbike, let alone an ELDAR jetbike...

[pretre]

Any clue, are the windriders keeping their 3+ armor save?

Yes

[pretre]

Also, with the rate of codex release, only the players with current eldar armies will benefit. GW will have a hard counter out before the "new" eldar players get their armies painted.

lol Just like there was a hard counter for the last two years to Wave Serpents, right?

[intrizic]

lol Just like there was a hard counter for the last two years to Wave Serpents, right?

assault, krak grenades were always enough

[Guest]

lol Just like there was a hard counter for the last two years to Wave Serpents, right?

You say that, but there are several hard counters for wave serpents, bikes, and most things with jink. That said, most TOs ban them, for one reason or another. Just about any escaltion/FW option with decent strength, cover denial and low AP get banned because it nerfs those precious bike and skimmer armies.

 

TAU are still pretty well equipped to cope with skimmer spam, too.

 

 

assault, krak grenades were always enough

And, yeah, krak grenades and basic assault still work just fine against wave serpents.

[pretre]

You say that, but there are several hard counters for wave serpents, bikes, and most things with jink. That said, most TOs ban them, for one reason or another. Just about any escaltion/FW option with decent strength, cover denial and low AP get banned because it nerfs those precious bike and skimmer armies.

 

TAU are still pretty well equipped to cope with skimmer spam, too.

 

 

And, yeah, krak grenades and basic assault still work just fine against wave serpents.

Umm. What Escalation/FW option with decent str, cover, etc was banned? You talking D?

 

As for Krak grenades, sure. Most assault works against WS, if you can get there.

[Guest]

Umm. What Escalation/FW option with decent str, cover, etc was banned? You talking D?

 

As for Krak grenades, sure. Most assault works against WS, if you can get there.

I'm talking about the hellhammer, for one. There are certainly others, but that's on the top of the list. A modest solution for imperial armies to cope with biker armies and skimmer armies alike. BANNED. Not even a D weapon.

 

Though on topic, Ranged D is reasonable against skimmer and biker armies. Not unbalanced.

[AbusePuppy]

I think from the looks of it, you are probably wanting either a Scatter Laser on every single bike that you can get it on, or two out of every three bikes (just so you have a sacrificial chump to take the first failed save.) But in either case, you want a LOT of them because raw firepower is your friend there.

 

Also, the list probably runs two big squads led by Farseers so they can Guide/Prescience those units for extra accuracy and then everything else smaller 3man units.

 

 

You say that, but there are several hard counters for wave serpents, bikes, and most things with jink. That said, most TOs ban them, for one reason or another. Just about any escaltion/FW option with decent strength, cover denial and low AP get banned because it nerfs those precious bike and skimmer armies.

 

Pax, no offense, but you're talking out of your a** here. The reason Frontline put the kibosh on Ignores Cover blasts and templates with low AP is because having to scoop up 20+ models to a S10 AP1 10" blast is the opposite of fun. And a weapon like that doesn't even faze Wave Serpents- they just keep their Shield up on the first turn and lose a single Hull Point to it. Yawn.

 

I also seem to remember you arguing for the viability of Escalation back in 6E and how it was fine if people just adjusted to it and people were panicking over nothing. I did actually play in an Escalation tournament and it was exactly as predicted- the Warhound and Revenant smashed everyone's face in and players without superheavies pretty much didn't stand a chance. This is exactly the same situation- no matter how much you are convinced that things are perfectly fine and not a problem, a LOT of very experienced tournament players know exactly what will happen if those units are allowed into the meta.

[Jayne_Cobbb]

And when those skimmer arm he's can spam more strength D than anyone else?

[Guest]

Pax, no offense, but you're talking out of your a** here. The reason Frontline put the kibosh on Ignores Cover blasts and templates with low AP is because having to scoop up 20+ models to a S10 AP1 10" blast is the opposite of fun. And a weapon like that doesn't even faze Wave Serpents- they just keep their Shield up on the first turn and lose a single Hull Point to it. Yawn..

The topic is counters to wave serpent spam which already exist in 7th. If having the hellhammer prevents the serpent spam from firing their shields for turn 1, then it's a job well done. That is a counter unit. I don't have to destroy them to counter them, I just need to keep them in check.

 

PS: hellhammer is 7" blast. The tank is not broken. It is a 540pt unit. Lots of easy counter units to it in 40k (like fire dragons getting out of the wave serpents and melta gunning them down).

[Guest]

I also seem to remember you arguing for the viability of Escalation back in 6E and how it was fine if people just adjusted to it and people were panicking over nothing. I did actually play in an Escalation tournament and it was exactly as predicted- the Warhound and Revenant smashed everyone's face in and players without superheavies pretty much didn't stand a chance. This is exactly the same situation- no matter how much you are convinced that things are perfectly fine and not a problem, a LOT of very experienced tournament players know exactly what will happen if those units are allowed into the meta.

 

You create your own meta.

 

A good number of 40k armies are never tried, and many 40k units are never fielded.

 

Allow the meta to diversify and may you'll the get balance that you want.

[Hobbitron]

A good number of 40k armies are never tried, and many 40k units are never fielded.

 

Allow the meta to diversify and may you'll the get balance that you want.

 

Sorry, still not fielding a Pyrovore army.

 

Many units aren't fielded for a reason. In order to really have a diverse meta, there have to be more viable options. Things like these jetbikes reduce the number of viable options. Not only for Eldar (why take anything else when you can just load up on more jetbikes), but also for other armies as they adapt to seeing jetbikes more often. All of a sudden a horde army will just get laid waste to. Horde armies are ultimately removed from the meta because a 30 man ork unit can be taken out of play on turn 1 before it can impact the game.

[Guest]

Sorry, still not fielding a Pyrovore army.

 

Many units aren't fielded for a reason. In order to really have a diverse meta, there have to be more viable options. Things like these jetbikes reduce the number of viable options. Not only for Eldar (why take anything else when you can just load up on more jetbikes), but also for other armies as they adapt to seeing jetbikes more often. All of a sudden a horde army will just get laid waste to. Horde armies are ultimately removed from the meta because a 30 man ork unit can be taken out of play on turn 1 before it can impact the game.

No, horde armies are removed from the meta because most EVENTS don't have the the time to move 240+models across the table each turn for 5-7 turns.

 

As for the pyrovore, did you ever meet anyone that actually fielded them? I never did. They didn't try it. Even if they suck, if enough people bring the inferior unit, it affects the meta. That's just how it works.

 

As my arguement for escalation of 6th, it's just a matter of how often you encounter a unit or type of unit. The Revenant is nasty, no question, but if 1/6 games faces one, and you just keep facing them, you'll develop a counter. That's just how the meta is.

 

Half, yeah, half of the issue with the revenant is how uncommon it was. Then you get to an event where all the eldar players have them and you don't know what to do, the meta has suddenly changed and you can't adapt. This isn't because anything is broken, but because you just haven't adapted yet.

 

This is why we were talking about adding a sideboard to 40k, as I recall.

[MikhailLenin]

[AbusePuppy]

No, horde armies are removed from the meta because most EVENTS don't have the the time to move 240+models across the table each turn for 5-7 turns.

 

Back in 5E, when I was playing Tyranids, I regularly moved 100+ models (and cast psychic powers, and shot, and assaulted, and spawned new units) with ease in tournament time limits. Timed rounds is not what is killing horde armies.

[generalripphook]

The problem is games workshop must have no clue that we compare units to other units in the same codex.

 

IG can take a heavy weapon squad of mortars for 60 points.

 

OR for 65 points take a wyvern with 4 mortars. That are twin linked. Oh and also have shred. Oh also a heavy bolter

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah but the Mortar Squad are T3/5+, whereas the Wyvern is... uh... AV12.

 

Um.

[fluger]

OR for 65 points take a wyvern with 4 mortars. That are twin linked. Oh and also have shred. Oh also a heavy bolter

And is immune to S3.  

 

The only possible upside on the mortar team is that it is objective secured...  That's about it.  

[Guest]

And is immune to S3.  

 

The only possible upside on the mortar team is that it is objective secured...  That's about it.  

Detachment special rule, not part of the mortar team.

 

As an infantry unit, mortar team has the ability to be transported, to have characters join, and to get locked in assault. Not sure if better or worse can really be applied here, but there are differences.

[intrizic]

i don't see no scatter laser to jetbike ratios..... :D

[Skkipper]

Just need to wait. The way is sounds, it is close to making me sell out of gw because fun has been removed. I will shoot for more last place finishes in this broken system

[Hobbitron]

i don't see no scatter laser to jetbike ratios..... :D

 

I don't think there is a clear ratio. Honestly I'd rather face 1 unit of 10 with a 1:1 ratio than 2 units of 3 and 1 of 4 with a total 2:3 or even 1:2 ratio. I think the 1 unit can be managed a little bit more easily, and I only have to worry about a single unit in the long run. They can drop 40 shots, but only into a single target. Rather than 20 shots between three targets, or focusing those 20 on one. The one big unit kills something, and then I can address it on my next turn. And it's more likely to waste shots via overkill.

[fluger]

i don't see no scatter laser to jetbike ratios..... :D

Honestly, should be 1:5.  

[AbusePuppy]

1:3 with the Cannon was fine; if they costed the Scatter Laser the way it is in the current book (5pts more than the Cannon, typically) 1:3 there would be fine, too- you gain some stuff, you lose some stuff, you pay a few more points. The issue is the low price for the number of shots you're getting and the availability of getting a heavy weapon on EVERY member of the team, which is essentially unheard of (especially on such a cheap troop unit.)

[fluger]

cheap...fast...relentless...