ITC Vortex Weapons?

[Guest]

Pax I'm pretty confident the people that make the itc decisions play test. The wider population maybe not as much. But lack of practical experience doesn't mean strict lack of understanding. We can calculate the expected average result and determine a lot from that.

What are you addressing?

[Guest]

Ranged D weapons were banned because it's not particularly fun to just remove models wholesale without any way to defend against it. There is no amount of playing against a weapon carried by wraithguard 1 shotting my MCs that is going to make it fun. It seems the vast majority of the player base for ITC events agree with my thoughts on that. If D weapons only easily obliterated death stars or expensive units and not, quite literally, everything in the game then maybe it would be more accepted.

D weapons have almost the same odds to destroy 5 grots in a forest as they do 5 normal terminators. MCs are an example of a unit with lots of points in one spot, which is what D weapons excel against. 

 

You get your gargoyle or gaunt brood with them spaced 2" apart and the D weapons start looking much less impressive.

[pretre]

The point is that D is good against everything and superb against everything expensive. When you can spam 20+ D Templates/blasts that eliminate everything in the game equally well, that's not good for fun games.

[Guest]

The point is that D is good against everything and superb against everything expensive. When you can spam 20+ D Templates/blasts that eliminate everything in the game equally well, that's not good for fun games.

Who does this? You talking eldar, or someone else?

[galahad911]

It doesn't matter who, just that it's possible. It being a possibility if they weren't changed, it was going to be done since the ITC is for tournaments and tournament players have no reason not to.

[AbusePuppy]

Only Eldar can do it, which is part of what makes it so unfair.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

What are you addressing?

This:

 

That said, I think the biggest issue plaguing ranged D is that people haven't faced it much in 7th due to events, like the ITC, which ban them. D weapons have been present in all of 7th edition. There is a D shooting attack in the BRB's psychic power lists. They have been becoming more common with every few books. That eldar book should have been received by players that had faced a gradual increase of D weapons for the entirety of 7th.

 

Just cause it is common doesn't mean it is welcome.

[derek]

The we can kill any unit with no effort with d weapons is a lame excuse it's only killing you outright on a 6 you didn't need to change the chart besides the 6 if anything stomps are way worse cause it just kills everything under the blast template on a 6 no question at least ranged was 1 model was very very dead not a whole unit on a 6. Wraith guard were s4 for purposes of instant death and could never get a 6 so bad example there

[derek]

Again before people snap at me I'm calm not trying to be the aggressor or anything

[pretre]

Even not a 6 multiple wounds on a failed wave for 2-5 with no armor is pretty bad. No cover from template D is jus heinous.

 

By all means, play an against an unmodified D eldar army and tell me how much fun you have.

[pretre]

Wraith templates ignore cover so you took multiple wounds on a 3+, no armor or cover. That's a lot more than 'no worry'.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Stomp requires you to get to combat which is not easy and on average stomp gets 2 attempts at a 6, not a great chance. One template usually gets 3 models or more of a unit, that is three models without invuls gone unless they have a invul too and even that can be ignored. I can't remember if they are slow and purposeful, but if wraiths are that is a unit you don't assault without a sacrificial unit.

 

Knights are very singular in purpose but most anti heavy options nearly all lists have are capable of wiping them off the board.

[Guest]

This:

 

That said, I think the biggest issue plaguing ranged D is that people haven't faced it much in 7th due to events, like the ITC, which ban them. D weapons have been present in all of 7th edition. There is a D shooting attack in the BRB's psychic power lists. They have been becoming more common with every few books. That eldar book should have been received by players that had faced a gradual increase of D weapons for the entirety of 7th.

 

Pax I'm pretty confident the people that make the itc decisions play test. The wider population maybe not as much. But lack of practical experience doesn't mean strict lack of understanding. We can calculate the expected average result and determine a lot from that.

I think you've made a leap, as you're response is not to something I'm debating. I am not suggesting the ITC doesn't play test or lacks practical experience with the above quote. I am saying that due to the general population not using Destroy weapons for most of 7th, the appearance of armies like the Eldar which features lots of D, become larger than life as the players really haven't spent any time playing 40k with ranged D. I think this general population lack of practice with D is largely related to events like the ITC, which have been banning sections of the 7th ed rules for all of 7th.

 

 

Knights are very singular in purpose but most anti heavy options nearly all lists have are capable of wiping them off the board.

Have you really not faced any armies which simply could not destroy your knights? I know with my marines, I actually have units dedicated to this role, as the knights cannot be realistically destroyed with standard AT solutions which would be more than adequate for non-super heavies (and even some non-invulnerable super heavies). I know the local meta for AT has really changed in escalation 6th/7th due to regular games with super heavies.

 

Knights are a good example of the above, where it's something that has been in all of 7th and players have adapted to them. There were strong objections to super heavies and melee D in normal play prior to escalation. We've certainly adapted, though 40k has really changed as a result of coping with super heavies and melee D in normal play.

 

 

Only Eldar can do it, which is part of what makes it so unfair.

But you aren't advocating D for everyone, you are in favor of a ban/nerf that mostly limits a specific army.

 

 

The point is that D is good against everything and superb against everything expensive. When you can spam 20+ D Templates/blasts that eliminate everything in the game equally well, that's not good for fun games.

20+ D blasts/templates is a mean list, no question, but they can be coped with in 7th. That Skyhammer Assault formation, in example, is a pretty reliable way to lock up a number of wraithguard without any real fear of reprocussion. There are other formations that help here. 20+ D blasts/templates still can't hit aircraft or snap.

 

I will note that since ITC also nerfed invisibility and re-roll-able 2+ saves, they've indirectly made D blasts/templates much harder to resist.

 

 

Just cause it is common doesn't mean it is welcome.

I don't welcome the skilled rider biker armies of 7th. I don't find them enjoyable to face and I think the skilled rider rule ignoring terrain is unfluffy. But I'm not suggesting a ban or nerf of people's armies just because I don't welcome their way of list building or don't agree with the rules as written.

[pretre]

Sigh.

[indytims]

As and Eldar player myself, I've always been leery of taking D-weapons. Sure, the cheapest ones are fairly limited range, which is cool, but they are indeed very powerful once they get in close.

 

But I totally think GW went a bit overboard with -template- D weapons on dudes that cost less than 40 pts each. Sure, the template itself is, what, 8" long, but it's a template, and taking a -unit- of these guys is just brutal. Even as an Eldar player myself, -I- sure wouldn't want to face those.

 

D-cannon weapons batteries? Meh. They're pretty easy to counter. But the WK and the Hemlock, again, make me scratch my head.

 

I think I 'get it'. I think the d-weapons are an answer to all the AV14 stuff I see, that Eldar don't have access to (nothing above AV12 that I can recall). Eldar have always been molded into a 'glass cannon' like feel, at least in my opinion, so the bulk of the force is T3, but have weapons that can punch you in the baby-maker and make you feel it. I just think it could have been implemented better.

 

Granted, I know when I eventually receive a Skyhammer to my grill, or I am facing a literal box-load of free Predators/Pods, I'll probably wish I had some of those d-scythes on the board (even though they'll probably be locked in combat from the start, har!). But at this time, with the Eldar codex being one of the newer ones, I can definitely understand why folks without a 'current' codex are a bit antsy about facing them. Folks might not agree, but I see stuff like Skyhammer as a direct counter to a lot of the D weapons Eldar have.

[pretre]

I tell you what. I'll play full on D abuse eldar. You play sky hammer or whatever you want from whatever codex. Bet you change your tune. ;)

[pretre]

Heck, I'd probably spot you a couple hundred points.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

D weapon templates are short ranged until you start adding transport then those guys show up whereever they need to kick my ass.

 

Your mild hint at chicken little syndrome is what I'm debating. You keep mentioning general population doesn't have practical experiencing playing against elder. I agree but theory hammer is fairly effective and the combined experience of the Internet is fairly worth trusting.

 

As for Knights. Yeah I have played against completely ineffectual armies and still struggled to win. As winning by points is more important then killing. For example two more turns I would have tabled pretre in our game especially if I didn't try a denial deployment, but I lost handly because his list was designed to score not kill.

 

I have played Knights against armies with minimal melts and smoked them easily, but I tell you what the lists were on different pars from the beginning.

 

I have also watched my knight sit in melee for 3 turns doing little to nothing.

 

None of this is evidence, but theory and tourneys show Knights area strong force but fail against top tier lists. 10 d weapon templates would easily nuke my knight. Hell a 5 man could nuke them and their a 1/3 of my points. With transport that fear is not entirely unreasonable.

 

Throw in some of the best bike troops in the game with 3 10 man d template units with transports and you have a list that will have a hard time not winning. That is not even the best composition.

[pretre]

I know how to score! And yeah, in two of my three games I would have been tabled if I got to turn 6. ;)

[indytims]

I tell you what. I'll play full on D abuse eldar. You play sky hammer or whatever you want from whatever codex. Bet you change your tune. ;)

 

I'd be happy to! And I wouldn't need to be 'spotted' points. :)  Of course, this would in no way be 'scientific', as I have a -pretty- good idea you're simply a much better player than I am to begin with.  ;)

 

But this sounds like something that could be fun. We did something like this in a game-club I was a member of back in the 90's when I lived near Denver. Six of us showed up... and then the guy organizing the event said, 'Ok, now look at the person to your right - their army is the one you'll be playing tonight'.

 

I got to play orks. I also got crushed. LOL. But it was a fun an interesting evening regardless.

 

Anyway, sure, I'd be up for it. :)

[pretre]

The point is that a D abuse eldar list will make short work of pretty much anyone and it wouldn't be fun. You'd basically be picking up handfuls of your army every time your opponent rolled dice.

 

I guess it might be fun if you're the one who randomly draws the eldar list and you like making grown men cry.

[Guest]

None of this is evidence, but theory and tourneys show Knights area strong force but fail against top tier lists.

Do ranged D weapons appear in top tourney lists? If that is your measure for knights being fair, then are ranged D weapons over whelming the tourney scene? Or are you just banning them on theory?

 

You keep saying that the general population has practical experience with unmodified ranged D weapons in 7th, but I really haven't seen much of it at WOW, GG or in the local events. Have you seen D spamed locally? Do local events tend to favor only the guy with lots of ranged D?

 

I'll admit, our GG league was won this time around with a D eldar army, though the kicker was that we were told to bring soft lists that would serve as good OFCC practice, so I think the D eldar might be misrepresented this time around. We did use ITC FAQs, so it's not really a good example of unmodified ranged D being good or bad. SM and DA also got new books this month, so I'm really doubting that the D Eldar army will be as solid next month.

[pretre]

Someone needs to play against pax with unmodified d eldar so we can end this.

[Guest]

Someone needs to play against pax with unmodified d eldar so we can end this.

What's the point? I mean, I know I'm not a very hard opponent. It would be a fluke if I won, D weapons or not.

 

And a list designed to be cheesy doesn't disprove or prove my points. A cheesy list is a cheesy list, with or without D.

 

Are you seeing lots of Ranged D in your local events which are so very broken that you needed to ban/nerf them?

 

Or did you just read about D weapons and decide they look bad enough on paper that you didn't want to face them in real life?

 

How many games, in 7th edition, have you faced unmodified ranged D weapons?

 

I think I've got 2 against aquilla strongpoints, but that's it. That's all of 7th edition, just 2 games against unmodified ranged D (not including super heavy vehicle ranged D explosions...). Didn't even get to shoot the second game, as I had a plan in place.

[indytims]

The point is that a D abuse eldar list will make short work of pretty much anyone and it wouldn't be fun. You'd basically be picking up handfuls of your army every time your opponent rolled dice.

 

I guess it might be fun if you're the one who randomly draws the eldar list and you like making grown men cry.

 

That is probably very accurate.

 

But I also think the Skyhammer list will make plenty of people cry, as well. And I've read a lot of tears about certain Necron builds, etc.

 

So let's simply remove D weapons from the game. Ok - so who has the biggest stick now that we can go after? :)

 

Out of curiosity - are D-based Eldar armies ruling the tournament scene? Do they rule the local casual scene? As you know, I am very new to the Portland/Vancouver area and have no idea if they dominate here as much as folks would have me believe.