Making Lists for AoS Some What Balanced Topic

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Had a thought. All of you that have helped with the OFCC list review imagine doing that before every game you play without points.

[Diomides]

The squad lists at the end of each section seem like a good starting point for figuring out the "points" on what to take. For the dwarfs, a dispossessed clan throng with artillery battery would consist of;

1 dwarf lord

1 unit of hammerers

1 unit of longbeards

2 units of thunderers

2 units of warriors

1 dwarf engineer

3 war machines

If I took the minimum amount of models for each unit, added in the veterans, musicians, standards, and threw shields on all of them, that would come out to around 1400 eighth edition points.

[bkieft]

It's okay buddy, don't worry about it, magic will happen and there will be unicorns and sunsets and flowers.

 

Every opponent will be a peach, no one will figure out deadly combos and we will all just roll dice and have fun...it will work!

 

List ratings are a thing of the past!

[Threejacks]

You could retreat the 40 blob and charge with something else to tarpit the tarpit.

Yeah,in this case though I didn't have another blob to move in and was more or less doing a "Mutual Grind" to see how long it would last,which went the full 6 turns,hehe.

 

Gonna do another small battle with my sons Lizardmen next,we are gonna do 1k points this time.

 

Ive been reading more rumors of those that have spoken with their local GW store managers about army building...seems some have said that there is an army contruction system to come.Could certainly be more wishfull thinking though.

[dkieft]

The problem I see with a wound limit is that all wounds are not created equal. I haven't really looked at O&G but I assume Goblins still suck... so 50 goblins vs 50 Dwarfs is a trash match up assuming one wound models (I am guessing, like I said... just making an example).

 

With a sort of scroll rank in place you could then better "charge" per wound... (Gobbos vs Dwarfs would still be trash in the "core"), so then maybe put a cap on the scrolls where once the cap is passed the scroll counts as two scrolls. So 20 Dwarf Warrior as cap makes 21-40 would cost two scroll slots. While the cap for a gobbo unit would be 30 or some such.

[Kremmet]

Exactly, dkieft, wounds are not created equally.  If you lock people into X units of X type with a total not exceeding X wounds then, especially with a system this simple, it'll be relatively simple to figure out sweet spots for lists.  In fact a lot of factions like WoC/DoC/UD get an additional boost through packing so much power into a relatively small wounds set while "horde" armies are sort of left to die out. 

 

If people really want to play AoS I'd say that standardized force organizations are the place to start with a vacillating thought on wound and/or model totals.  My thoughts right now are something like:
 

1 Hero unit

1 Wizard/Priest unit

3 Infantry units

1 Cavalry unit

2 War machine/Monster units

 

For armies comprised of purely own racial keyword type you may substitute one category for another (eg dwarfs may sub out cavalry for a war machine/hero/infantry unit).  Unit sizes are capped at double the minimum number and Sudden Death rules are suspended (more likely replaced with a more appropriate set).

 

Again these are just my thoughts and I'm sure many people are thinking the same thing, but I feel the first thing we have to stop doing is trying to restrict based on wounds.  That will only lead to madness.

[indytims]

The problem I see with a wound limit is that all wounds are not created equal. I haven't really looked at O&G but I assume Goblins still suck... so 50 goblins vs 50 Dwarfs is a trash match up assuming one wound models (I am guessing, like I said... just making an example).

 

With a sort of scroll rank in place you could then better "charge" per wound... (Gobbos vs Dwarfs would still be trash in the "core"), so then maybe put a cap on the scrolls where once the cap is passed the scroll counts as two scrolls. So 20 Dwarf Warrior as cap makes 21-40 would cost two scroll slots. While the cap for a gobbo unit would be 30 or some such.

 

This is absolutely true, based on what I've seen. "All wounds are not created equal". There are 1-wound models that stink, and 1-wound models that rock.

 

While Wounds alone isn't a -perfect- system, it does at least help put a 'cap' on army size, because as the game stands, you literally -can- bring 300 figs and your opponent really can't do much about it... except bring 300 of his own. The 'Sudden Death' rules seem like a very weak attempt to discourage this.

[pretre]

I saw an interesting mechanic for balance.

 

(ToHit x ToWound)/Wounds=Unit Size

i.e.
DE Bleakswords would be (3x4)/1 = max 12 models/warscroll.
DE Darkshards would be (5x4)/1 = max 20 models/warscroll.
DE Dark Riders would be (5x4)/2 = max 10 models/warscroll.
Would make an excellent starting point.

 

 

Apparently devised by Avian on Warseer.

[indytims]

I saw an interesting mechanic for balance.

 

Apparently devised by Avian on Warseer.

 

It is interesting, but there are points where it seems to start to get interesting...

 

Chaos Warriors: 3/4/2  = 6?

 

Chosen: 3/3/2 = 4?

 

Chaos Knights: 3/4/3 = 4?

 

Of course, is that better than looking at facing a unit of 50 Chaos Warriors? Probably. ;)

 

Not to mention, the 'single model' war scrolls are -enormously- disproportionate. On one hand, you have a Demon Prince. On the other hand, you have a Skaven Packmaster. Each is one model per war scroll. They are nowhere near being 'equivalent'.

 

I suppose you COULD agree to something where your single-model warscrolls total wounds have to be 'near' the same as your opponents. So if you DID bring a big guy with, say, 12 wounds, I could bring more warscrolls with single figures that total around 12 wounds?

 

Maybe there needs to be a different mechanic for single-model war scrolls vs. large-unit warscrolls.

 

And not to mention, I can't seem to find any sort of way a 'character' can protect himself from shooting other than trying to get out of 'line of sight'. If characters can't join units....

[Brother Glacius]

you know the answer could be really simple. GW Just didn't make this game for us. It made it for new players

[Diomides]

That mechanic is interesting, but yeah it seems to fall apart with the Warriors of Chaos units. The chaos warriors unit has ten or more models, so six wouldn't be enough.

[pretre]

That mechanic is interesting, but yeah it seems to fall apart with the Warriors of Chaos units. The chaos warriors unit has ten or more models, so six wouldn't be enough.

No, it works fine. You pay 2 warscrolls to take 12 in one unit.

[Diomides]

Ooooh I didn't think of that.

[Slayer King]

My bro and I are going to try this (I know it has flaws but starting point).

 

Decide how many scrolls you want (think of total number of units you'd like to see, characters are just added with this total, like many have said they do not hold thear own well)

 

We are going to start at max 10 (could have less if you wanted)

 

Next cap max wounds. Don't cap unit maxes. If someone wants to blow their wad all on zombies go for it.

 

We are doing a 120 wound cap.

 

My Chaos looks like this

 

Crom

Sorcerer

BSB

Warriors 15

Forsaken 10

Knights 6

Bloodletters 15

Spawn 2

Warshrine

 

This is 9 scrolls and puts my wounds right at 120. We are going to start here and see if it has any depth at all. If not we are going to play same lists and do some Warmachine/Horde scenarios and see if this adds some depth to the game. Time will tell.

[indytims]

No, it works fine. You pay 2 warscrolls to take 12 in one unit.

 

Hmmm! Interesting! :)

[McNathanson]

There isn't going to be a simple formula like that which is anywhere close to balanced... for example, Magic Users. I know I know, "it's a start", but creating a comp system right now is waaaaay premature.  Just play the game and get a feel.

 

This is pure and simple "self comp" for now, and I for one think it's a bold move by GW and I applaud them for not pretending to do game balance.  The "points" system they wrote in the past was a farce.  Thus, Swedish Comp, "Cheese", comp scoring your opponent at a tournament, and all these other ways of self-comping that have made WFB somewhat competitive-tournament-playable.

 

Maybe in the future GW will release a comp system with tournament play in mind.  Or maybe the community will beat them to it (and do a much better job - I dearly hope this is what happens).  But either way, I actually think it's refreshing that GW is at least not pretending to have a balanced point system in place.  At least now we don't have to argue about which things are under-costed!

 

IMHO now is time to just talk with your buddies about what might be fun, and throw down together.  Formulas like the above are a premature waste of time that will get you lost in the weeds before you even know the game.

 

[thatdave]

I think maybe GW is getting us, as the player base, to make their game for them. GW claims to be a miniatures company, not a game company. And what better way to appease the masses than to give them the game they want by letting them do all the leg work and develop said game?

 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but perhaps GW has finally got wise and (as I've seen mentioned) the game is being play tested on a global scale and our input will actually carry some weight.

 

Then again, if our input carried weight we'd still be playing pre-ET 8th.....

[dkieft]

I think maybe GW is getting us, as the player base, to make their game for them. GW claims to be a miniatures company, not a game company. And what better way to appease the masses than to give them the game they want by letting them do all the leg work and develop said game?

 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but perhaps GW has finally got wise and (as I've seen mentioned) the game is being play tested on a global scale and our input will actually carry some weight.

 

Then again, if our input carried weight we'd still be playing pre-ET 8th.....

If this is what is happening (and honestly I hope so), I think there is a serious flaw in their plans... They forgot to tell the players.

 

If they were all "Hey guys, we are making a new edition and we want you, the player, to be a part of the development process" Then we could all rally to the call and help build a better game.

 

But as is, They are all "Age of Bad Rules! Buy it now!!!", and with no one knowing what to expect (including if there is even a more detailed version of the game coming) everyone currently $20k into the game (seriously, I have no idea how much I have spent, but it is probably at least that) is just all but hurt and depressed because the game they loved has been raped and left for dead some where in the woods.

[pretre]

Their communication has always been one of their biggest flaws. :(

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Their communication has always been one of their biggest flaws. :(

They do act like Apple but they do not have the track record like Apple. You can't just ignore your costumer base and expect them to figure out what you want.

[thatdave]

Their lack of communication has always been one of their biggest flaws. :(

Fixt for you.

 

And who else got some Judas Priest running thru their brain as/after you read that. Come on, you can admit it - we're all friends here.

[pretre]

Fixt for you.

 

And who else got some Judas Priest running thru their brain as/after you read that. Come on, you can admit it - we're all friends here.

Well, I left lack out because even when they do communicate, it is often insufficient or just poorly thought out.

[Brother Glacius]

Anyone figured out how to convert the AoS warscrolls into 8th ed unit stats? Just wondering how the Sigmarines would look on square bases.

[dkieft]

Anyone figured out how to convert the AoS warscrolls into 8th ed unit stats? Just wondering how the Sigmarines would look on square bases.

I'd use Space Marines as a baseline Stat.

[McNathanson]

As far as a point system goes,it seems the only reference we have to go by right now is to just use the base line costs of 8th edition,Add on if the model has a signature item equipped and go from there.

 

Really if you want some sort of "somewhat approximately close to equal kinda" starting point, WFB points cost is about as close as you're going to get.

 

Or, you can go with my initial proposal which most of you haven't even mentioned.  Version 10 is already history and I'm about done beta testing TeethBuilder 11.0