Meh, Crud. Mumble. Grrrr.

[splinx]

I have never been a big Gamer more of a collector and modeler so the rules changes for me is more disappointment for me. The thing that has pissed me off most is the complete killing of all of the fluff and history of my childhood. Starting ways back in the 8's i have grown along with others in the fluff of the old world and the huge depth that has been created. To me its stupid for a company that has such history and depth (That could of been explored more and elaborated on to continue the fluff and create new races etc rather than killing it off completely. I for one am not liking this new fluff they have created and it oozes simplistic and very basic and fundamental changes in the way they are going about "Fantasy" 

 

I heard just an hour ago that the plan is for normal Dwarves to be riding "Lava Beasts". lol to me its laughable changing lore so much that i am going to do as much as i can to continue the old world fluff as long was possible as its a superb world waiting for someone to come along and continue its epic story. 

[ClassicFlava]

Yeah i am going play KoW and AoS an whichever one is better is what I will stick with. Only issue I see there being is AoS is unplayable as a tournament game in its current form. I very much enjoy tournaments so if that doesn't change I can't see myself sticking with it.

[dashneeb]

Here's an interesting point I'd just lay out.

 

Die-hard fantasy players, some who have said that they haven't bought new models in a long time have come out and bashed AoS.  

 

GW already gave you the finger.  You can try to bash AoS all you want, but your vote was with your wallet, and they heard.  So they made something different.  You can do one of a few things:  burn your models, gripe about it in social forums, quit or play it and embrace it.

 

Case in point, I really liked 2nd ed 40k.  It was interesting, dynamic, and fun.  I thought people who complained about power gaming just didn't have the right answers.  I scratched and clawed resisting 3rd.  I continued to play second for months.  Then, I learned the rules, realized there was no going back, and sucked it up.  I became happy with the product.  

 

Either give AoS a chance or go find people to play eighth with you.  If you don't like AoS, a simple "I don't like AoS, it's not my cup of tea" is all one needs.

[Brother Glacius]

Maybe you guys should listen to the lastest Dwellers Below podcast. Also, what's the point of proclaiming doom over and over. Once should suffice.

 

My option on AoS falls in line with the Dwellers.

What's the point of people constantly defending it? Isn't once enough for them too? End of day though, we like to talk about games and we like sharing our opinions. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Here's an interesting point I'd just lay out.

 

Die-hard fantasy players, some who have said that they haven't bought new models in a long time have come out and bashed AoS.

 

GW already gave you the finger. You can try to bash AoS all you want, but your vote was with your wallet, and they heard. So they made something different. You can do one of a few things: burn your models, gripe about it in social forums, quit or play it and embrace it.

 

Case in point, I really liked 2nd ed 40k. It was interesting, dynamic, and fun. I thought people who complained about power gaming just didn't have the right answers. I scratched and clawed resisting 3rd. I continued to play second for months. Then, I learned the rules, realized there was no going back, and sucked it up. I became happy with the product.

 

Either give AoS a chance or go find people to play eighth with you. If you don't like AoS, a simple "I don't like AoS, it's not my cup of tea" is all one needs.

I have been buying Lots of Fantasy models over the last few years. So I was given the finger when I was supporting them! So your example fails here.

 

And if you stated you like AoS then you shouldn't have to go and try and silence those that don't care for it.

 

What's good for the Geese is good for the Gander.

[indytims]

Case in point, I really liked 2nd ed 40k.  It was interesting, dynamic, and fun.  I thought people who complained about power gaming just didn't have the right answers.  I scratched and clawed resisting 3rd.  I continued to play second for months.  Then, I learned the rules, realized there was no going back, and sucked it up.  I became happy with the product.  

 

 

LOL I was in the same boat - mega-huge 2nd ed 40K fan. I 'retired' from 40k for awhile when 3rd came out.

 

Thing is, -now- folks have a bazillion choices... which we didn't have back then. ;)

 

GW is moving ahead - with or without us. Venting on forums time and time again isn't going to change that. And I am willing to bet there are games out there that folks DO like, and instead of raging against something that they have no control over, I'd hope those folks would move on to something they -do- enjoy.

 

I understand the pain, too. I have several thousand points of Skaven that I likely won't get to use in an AoS game. So I will hope to play some 8th ed at some point, or use them in another game. But I'll either embrace AoS - or move on. There's nothing but stress and frustration awaiting folks who wanna rage just to rage.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Actually expressing one's feelings is healthy. I am trying to give my reasons in an understandable way without going nuclear.

 

And yes I will move on. But right now I just needed to express my disappointment before I make up my mind on selling of my stuff.

 

A very human thing to do and I have done it. Sometimes we just want to know that we are not alone in the way we feel. (I have a college degree in this stuff so I know.)

 

But I said what I felt and am done. That's how it works.

[evil_bryan]

Attention lover and haters!

 

I know the 8th / AoS situation has polarized opinions, and we are nowhere close to the end of this GW inspired drama. It is critical that we refrain from off topic posts to keep threads on track.

 

Discussion is critical as we all process these changes, and I am asking the mod team to provide a wide birth on these threads. That being said, trolling and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

 

If you have any issues or questions, feel free to reach out to me directly.

[Kremmet]

Let me ask a serious question here.  How many of us bought into this game because of solid rules?  Most beginners get grabbed by a cool miniature or art work or a story or something and they see people having fun and want that themselves.  

 

 

I agree with your post for the most part, but I just wanted to chime in that most of my friends who play/played WHFB DID buy in because of the solid rules.  I even remember the conversation I had with my friend Jon that got us into WHFB in the first place.  It was towards the end of 3rd ed 40k (summer of '04) and we were tired of how repetitive 40k games were/are.  The whole draw of WHFB to us was that movement meant something and that stats were more granular (no ATSKNF making break checks superfluous for over half the armies, no AP making some guns useless, and added modifiers so you didn't need to roll eight million dice to do a wound).  The "cool miniatures" or art work to me weren't well represented in WHFB yet and I knew nothing about the story before I started playing beyond that it was a Tolkien-esque game.

 

Sure the models are mostly cool now and I love the hobby side of things, but ignoring that game play is as big of a draw as aesthetics to new players is dismissive of those players.  The fact that WHFB allowed for both (eventually) was what kept me in and that bridge between gamer and hobbyist is what I miss most in AoS.

[Threejacks]

You all did see this thread right?

 

http://www.ordofanaticus.com/index.php?/topic/25400-gw-competitive-rules/

 

This rumored rules addition seems a very reasonable point to start some community comp system.Just wanted to post that up as a reminder,please add to that thread if you do some testing on it or have ideas of your own.

 

Anyhow,as to one game vs that other,that being what this thread seems to be about I will add my thoughts.

 

Ive only got a few years of 8th edition under my belt and I too agree with the long time players,it is a great edition of the game.In my case it is all I will ever know of WHFB and im very happy having had the chance to enjoy it,especially with the fine players here at Ordo,thanx for all the help learning it!.

 

When they started all the End Times stuff I jumped on board with that as it really seemed like a cool edition to the game,adding in new play formats and such.Had fun with that stuff too!.

 

I was pretty stunned when I found out that the new game was going to pretty much be the "worst case" scenario as far as the rumors went,WHFB was over,ended:(

 

I can kinda see why GW took such drastic steps to revive this product line.The learning curve for 8th edition was actually pretty steep and to be honest with all the other game systems out there,they knew that sticking with a rather involving ruleset like 8th was a loosing proposition even if they somehow reduced the scope of the games to use way fewer models.I know a lot of people say that the old WHFB died because of the number of models you had to buy in with,but really I think it was more along the lines of the game just being too involved to play.For instance 40K has some huge model count armies,I know my Orks can easily field 150+ models at 2k points and we all know how much 40k`s sales account for GW profits.

 

As for AoS the games ive played thus far have been pretty fun,but yes as we all know,it NEEDS a comp system.Was GW stupid for not providing anything along those lines,perhaps.But I also look at 8th and Swedish comp...they provided the usual point adjustments to their game as they have done for so many editions but yet still the community amended it,which is fine and all.Could it be that GW is just at their end here and pretty much just throwing it over the community saying "want comp?,do it yourselves,you will do it anyway even if we did give you points".Now I still think GW will be providing more in the way of army building as the game moves through its initial release cycle as they must have some matrix that they used to assign points to the models they released along with the exisiting army Warscrolls.The community already has been running tournaments,working up systems to test out(one being the thread I posted above) and generally playing the game and working through it.

 

I don't see AoS "Failing".. actually let me ask,,,how loud were the "8th edition is fail" cries,or the 7th edition,or any previous edition for that matter.Its likely not going to satisfy those who crave the more involved game experience but it could also bring in many more new players than even 40k does with its rather heavy rulebook now.In my younger years I was really into involved and complex rulesets like ASL, Boots and Saddles,mostly the historical board game sims.Had a few other friends to play with now and then.But in recent years ive really gotten away from that stuff,quit traveling for MTG events and have pretty much settled into painting and modeling with some regular casual play mixed in.AoS fits right into the type of game play im looking for.

[fluger]

I agree with your post for the most part, but I just wanted to chime in that most of my friends who play/played WHFB DID buy in because of the solid rules.  I even remember the conversation I had with my friend Jon that got us into WHFB in the first place.  It was towards the end of 3rd ed 40k (summer of '04) and we were tired of how repetitive 40k games were/are.  The whole draw of WHFB to us was that movement meant something and that stats were more granular (no ATSKNF making break checks superfluous for over half the armies, no AP making some guns useless, and added modifiers so you didn't need to roll eight million dice to do a wound).  The "cool miniatures" or art work to me weren't well represented in WHFB yet and I knew nothing about the story before I started playing beyond that it was a Tolkien-esque game.

 

But you were already a miniatures gamer at that point, yes?  I'm talking about someone with no models of any kind.  What got you started in mini games the first time?  Did you start with 40k first and then go to Warhams?  Why did you start with 40k?  

 

I'll tell you what got me into mini games:  Snakebite Cyboar riders.  My friend off-handedly described how they worked, and I was IN on the 40k universe.  

[ninefinger]

Edit - sorry off topic

[Kremmet]

Ha!  What's funny is I originally had a piece in that talking about what I started with, but decided it didn't add much to the discussion.  I started with some random WWII 15mm game that a friend of mine would lend to me to play games.  I didn't think the play was dynamic enough so I swapped over to 40k once I learned about by visiting the old Alderwood store.  Aesthetically I actually preferred WHFB at the time as machismo sci-fi isn't really my thing, but relented when all of my friends wanted to play 40k instead.  So while I'd say just wanting to go with the flow of my buddies is what got me into the game the first decision I personally made was about how things interacted in the game.  I liked that Space Marines had the ability to compete in all phases with chapters giving a slight tweak towards one phase or another.  The fact that they were roided out posters boys didn't even occur to me as I thought they were robots when I first started.

 

So yeah, beyond the weird peer-pressure I chose primarily based off of game play with a secondary consideration for aesthetics much like I did for video games.  Sometimes I've been wrong about what that game play will actually be like (especially that EQ1 Ranger), but it's always been a primary consideration and I've noticed a lot of people are the same way.  Most of the time when I'm getting somebody into a new game they ask what the play styles are like along with looking at the models/knowing the fluff.  All three are important to the decision making process with, in my experience, game play coming first followed closely by aesthetics and sometimes story considerations.

[fluger]

I think perhaps you run in a more sophisticated crowd than I do.  

[Kremmet]

Oh yes, 11 year old Riley ran with only the most sophisticated of preteens :) .

[fluger]

Still more sophisticated than 16 year old Fluger.  :P  

[dashneeb]

I was speaking in generalities, not specifics.  However, I would note I've seen people play tons of fantasy in Portland, was one of the hot beds.

 

But overall, Fantasy players didn't buy enough, hence, the AoS.

 

 

Yes, AoS players can say "I like it" and move on, but let's face it, that's not human nature, is it? :)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I was speaking in generalities, not specifics.  However, I would note I've seen people play tons of fantasy in Portland, was one of the hot beds.

 

But overall, Fantasy players didn't buy enough, hence, the AoS.

 

 

Yes, AoS players can say "I like it" and move on, but let's face it, that's not human nature, is it? :)

Nope, we need time to process and sort out where we stand before we move on. But like every other change that happens we will figure out where we fit and then we can move on.

 

Also if we Moved On so easily the Music industry and Politics would be a very different world.