Fixing AoS

[Brother Glacius]

Okay, so how do we fix AoS so that it becomes something that resembles warhammer? So I have a few ideas and maybe if we get enough of them and tweak them around, we'll get a game that isn't so bad.

 

#1 - point values and unit caps. The goal here is to get a value for a war scroll that gives a good estimate of its worth. I don't need the exact values for each option, just a general number. I think to keep things simple, we use groups of four sizes based on unit type. Infantry comes in 10s, 20s, 30s, and 40s. Cav come in 5s, 10s, 15s, 20s, etc. This lets us put four point values for each war scroll where applicable. We then take the 8th ed point values and come up with a nice round number.

 

So for example, VC zombies: with command models, 40 guys is 130pts. Given that they have more special rules in AoS, I'd say that breaks down to 40pts per 10. However, zombies get better as they get larger, so I'd skew the points so that the larger sizes get more expensive. In the end, it looks like this:

10 = 20pts, 20 = 50pts, 30 = 90pts, 40 = 140pts. End result is that we have a point value that is close to 8th, modified for AoS special rules.

 

#2 - formations. Here we introduce rules to allow for rank and file formation.

 

Movement Phase: Movement wise, I think we keep to a simple pivot and move system, like KoW. When you want to move your unit, pivot so that it faces the direction they want to go, then measure the move. You can pivot any number of times unless the unit Runs. No pivots are allowed if a unit runs. A pivot cannot bring a model within 3" of an enemy model. A skirmish unit may change to a formation as its movement for the turn.

 

Charge Phase: The unit may only charge directly forward.

The benefit of a rank and file in combat, is that models in the back ranks need only measure to the front rank to get in attacks. In other words, they don't need to measure to the enemy model, but the front rank model that is in range. Only works going forward, ie no supporting attacks to the flanks.

 

Pile Ins -  the unit may only move directly forwards. If it is the owning player's turn, the unit may break formation and take on a skirmish formation, and each model may then make a normal 3" pile in move.

 

For example, your spearmen unit gets charged in the flank. During their pile-in move, they may move directly forwards 3" if it brings more models within range of enemy models in combat. On your next turn, you can break the formation and pile in as normal.

 

Units in formation get +1 to their Bravery for Battleshock tests.

 

#3 shooting into combat - Sure, go right ahead. And then evenly distribute the hits between the units engaged in the combat. Odd hit goes against target unit.

 

 

So that's all I have for now. I think it is a start. The war scrolls have got me interested enough to try and make this game playable.

[Swan-of-War]

 

Here you go

[Murphy'sLawyer]

 

Here you go

Now that is something I can get behind.

 

Seriously there isn't anything that can fix AoS without a complete do over. I know people Want to like it but there isn't anything that anyone is going to like about it in 5-6 months. People will try but the game is going to fail.

[indytims]

 

Here you go

 

I know this is someone's cute attempt at humor, but I think comparing it to Mordheim is pretty far off-base.... unless Mordheim works with a 50 figs or more?

 

AoS is a 'skirmish' game... which still requires models in units to remain withiin 1" of each other. It's far closer to WHFB than Mordheim, no matter how mad that makes WHFB players. ;)

[generalripphook]

I know this is someone's cute attempt at humor, but I think comparing it to Mordheim is pretty far off-base.... unless Mordheim works with a 50 figs or more?

 

AoS is a 'skirmish' game... which still requires models in units to remain withiin 1" of each other. It's far closer to WHFB than Mordheim, no matter how mad that makes WHFB players. ;)

 

The joke is you fix Age of Sigmar by playing Mordheim and calling it age of Age of Sigmar 

[fluger]

Anything that gets Mordheim more love is good with me.  

[indytims]

The joke is you fix Age of Sigmar by playing Mordheim and calling it age of Age of Sigmar 

 

Which doesn't make sense to me, since AoS is closer to WHFB than Mordheim is.

 

But, I'm old and slow sometimes. ;)

[dkieft]

Honestly, If you wanted to "Fix" this, I'd say you could go a long way by returning to Block units and a simplified version of 8th edition movement.

 

On top of that, you need to add Balance back in some how.

 

Then you can fix details like shooting into combat and such once the big holes are plugged if you still need to.

[Iraf]

Best way to fix AoS is to not buy it, and make GW fix their own god damn game.

[valourunbound]

It's really hard to speak with your wallet on free things.

[dkieft]

It's really hard to speak with your wallet on free things.

I think he means don't buy the box, don't buy the $74 maybe/maybe-not a rule book, don't buy the new models, don't buy what they are selling.

[Brother Glacius]

Can we get back on topic please. I'd actually like to hear people's thoughts on how they would tweak AoS to play more like WFB.

[Threejacks]

First priority is to deal with that stupid shooting into combat thing.Your solution is certainly worth some testing,personally though I would be for not allowing shooting targets that are within 1"of a friendly model.

 

As far as shooting out of combat,I would prefer to try just allowing shooting attacks by friendly units that are within 3" of enemies to only target those enemies,,and at that they would then forgo their melee attacks in the following combat phase,still pile in if desired though.

 

Hopefully some light will be shed on what GW has in mind for balance with this new army building app coming out soon.

[MexicanNinja]

...#2 - formations. Here we introduce rules to allow for rank and file formation. Movement wise, I think we keep to a simple pivot and move system, like KoW...

I was reading your post until I got this this.  Then I just stopped and didn't care to finish.  It's a skirmish game, if you want to pivot like KoW just play KoW.  If you want a tactical movement phase, play 8th.  Keep these KoW pivot refrences for KoW!

[MexicanNinja]

Best way to fix AoS is to not buy it, and make GW fix their own god damn game.

I have seen the light on how to get you to post on the forums with your true-inner rage.  Just keep bringing up positive and critical thinking about how AoS is good and/or has potential.  I've missed you!

[Threejacks]

Oh and also need to have a "Roll of one equals auto fail/miss" rule.Theres some combos out there were units can auto hit,and I can only assume theres the same for wounding.Of course if you also had the "reroll misses of one" thing going then you could still reroll.

[Iraf]

I have seen the light on how to get you to post on the forums with your true-inner rage.  Just keep bringing up positive and critical thinking about how AoS is good and/or has potential.  I've missed you!

 

It does bring out my inner rage.  This game is horrid.   Just watched Ben and Chris play a game in my game room, and it was so dull.  I couldn't even watch the whole thing.  Chris, Ben and I were spit balling making 9th ourselves.  Just a few tweaks to 8th type thing.  I'm sure there are a lot of people thinking along the same lines.  I wonder who will create a playable version first.

[bkieft]

So yeah, this is it, this is what GW has to offer and All the old Armies got these Warscrolls as a Farewell, not a more to come. Everything moving forward will be different from all the old stuff and will not be like the old armies.

The Old Models will be removed from sale as soon as the "New" armies are released. They will not be supported.

Again, from what the GW rep is saying these Warscrolls are not proof the the Old Armies will be supported but are a, as the rep said, a fun way to send them off because no one will want to play them seriously at tournaments.

This is what I have been reading from between the lines. All except the last statement which I think is from opposite world where no one will want to play AoS seriously at tournaments.

 

AoS is a better after hours tournament game...the type that I don't mind not finishing.

 

1) I think we should abandon the idea of trying to make AoS WFB...there is too much difference and a lot of ground to cover to make that a reality that the worldwide community would accept.

 

2) We an should get cracking on 8.5 and not wait, not hope GW is not doing the above to the game we want to play.

[Brother Glacius]

I was reading your post until I got this this.  Then I just stopped and didn't care to finish.  It's a skirmish game, if you want to pivot like KoW just play KoW.  If you want a tactical movement phase, play 8th.  Keep these KoW pivot refrences for KoW!

 

First off, you could pivot in 8th...it was called a musician reform. Pass a test and you could even move afterwards. So lighten up Francis.

 

Second, AoS is barely a game...I wouldn't even call it a skirmish game. The unit cards do have rules that I find interesting though. So much so that I'd rather create a better framework for them to be used on than the current 4 page set.

 

Also, formations are going to be critical to this game to allow for large armies. Sorry, moving a few blocks of 40 zombies around one model at a time isn't going to cut it. But as KoW has shown, you can keep the movement simple, which is the only theme that people can agree on with AoS.

 

And here's the other realization about 8.5 or just playing 8th...at some point it will get stale. Without new units and rules, people will get bored with it. So yeah, I'd rather spend my time tweaking AoS so that as GW releases more stuff, it can get incorporated with my existing armies.

[MexicanNinja]

So, you didn't need a musician to pivot and you can pivot as much as you want during a move, even if marching, you just couldn't pivot, as part of your movement, more than your movement value.

 

The musician allows a swift reform. This totally different than a pivot. It allows you to reform, not pivot, and then make a non-march move.

 

Nothing says you can't keep your models ranked up I movement trays for AoS. You will just be breaking the ranked up formation during charges and pile-ins.

[Brother Glacius]

Did you see a march move in the AoS rules? There is a run rule, so pivoting should be restricted by that. So I'll amend it to state that if the unit runs, no pivot is allowed. See? Collaboration. You made a point and the rules get tweaked. KoW has rules limiting pivots. In fact, most units can only pivot once. However, I didn't feel that sort of restriction was needed in AoS. I wanted to capture the ability to wheel, and that meant multiple pivots. Yes, I realize there are issues that need to be worked out. I think if we restrict breaking the formation during pile ins, that will help. Again, these aren't finished rules...just ideas to get things going.

[Sugarlessllama]

The game isn't even out a week and you're trying to "fix it"? smh

 

Seriously, how about just trying the new rules for a while and see how you like them? By which I mean, go out and about to play. If you only play the game with the same group of grumpy people, dislike of the rules becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

 

I had the same issue when Warmachine went from MK1 to MK2. It wasn't until I started playing with different people did I start to fairly evaluate the system. 

 

Just a thought.

[Brother Glacius]

Yes, I'm trying to "fix" AoS into something that I want to play. That doesn't mean I can't have fun with the current AoS system, but knowing myself (which, I am the expert here) AoS as is, is not enough. It will not keep me interested. So I really have three options ahead of me, 1) play AoS until I'm bored with it, 2) skip AoS, 3) fix AoS into something that fits what I want out of a fantasy game.

[generalripphook]

If you have to fix a game system this much its so much easier to play something else that appeals to you more. 

[Sugarlessllama]

If you have to fix a game system this much its so much easier to play something else that appeals to you more. 

 

Additionally, you can just continue to use the 8th edition rules.