Fixing AoS

[Brother Glacius]

Yes, I know what I can do. That isn't the point of this thread. The point is how do you tweak AoS to be a better game. I think it needs to address rank and file formations. Mostly due to the need to be able to move large numbers of models easily.

 

The total lack of a value system sucks. Sorry. What point is there to play a game where the outcome is a forgone conclusion due to unit selection?

 

And then the shooting into melee is just silly. You could also fix it like this:

Units may not shoot at enemy units that have a friendly unit within 3" of the target, unless the firing unit is also within 3".

 

Basically, no shooting into combat unless the shooting unit is already part of that combat.

 

I think that makes the game better. Adds some strategy to it.

[indytims]

BG,

 

There are a few very quick/easy (and decisive) fixes you could make.

 

1) Points values. Continue to use values from 8th ed. No matter what, that is going to be BETTER than what AoS uses now. ;)

 

2) Shooting into melee. Simply don't allow it. If you're good, you don't want to kill your friends. If you're evil, you don't want to risk pissing off your friends. :)

 

3) Ranks and such - use the basic rules for ranking up from 8th. Whether you allow the 1" gap or not, they can still be formed into ranks and such and should follow the movement rules you're used to.

 

4) Summoning - Disallow it. Since AoS warscrolls theoretically have no 'points value', disallowing summoning isn't going to harm those units with the ability. You're not 'paying' for the ability either way.

 

Just random thoughts. :)

[bkieft]

Those are pretty good ideas.

[Brother Glacius]

Great ideas. About ranking, what is the purpose of ranking? In most cases, ranking will reduce your number of attacks since you don't have models pushing in. Or is ranking only used during movement, and immediately lost once you pile in? I suppose if we just use it until the pile in, it will make movement easier at least some of the time. And lets face it, once you get into combat in this game, you either win or die. So how about something like this:

 

Ranking - units may start the game in rank and file formation. Use the 8th edition rules for moving a ranked unit (marching is replaced by running). Once a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, they will leave ranks during the pile in phase. Once a unit no longer has enemy models within 3", it may reform back into ranks at the start of its move phase.

 

As to summoning, I like it. So far, I have only seen summoning as spells, which means they can be stopped. Plus, most summons are have difficult numbers to hit anyways. The undead summons all have specific unit sizes too. If the summoning is free with no risk of failure, then perhaps that war scroll needs to be tweaked.

[indytims]

Have a peek at the chaos lord. It's not called 'summoning', but has the same effect. Any spells/abilities that grant free troops are inherently unbalancing. If you do go with a wound limit of some kind and allow summoning to exceed that limit, you might as well not bother with a limit at all.

[Threejacks]

Its true that a lot more playing needs to be done in order to come up with some solid changes.However I really think the shooting changes are an improvement right off the bat.

 

Things like ranks and such don't seem to be as such a big deal though..I use my trays and stay ranked going into pile in,then the game devolves into chaos afterward anyway.Having a charge arc/facing for multimodel units could be an interesting addition to the game though.

 

 

Also with the upcoming release of the digital app with the army builder and more scenario based gameplay so that may change up things a lot.

[generalripphook]

If you start under the wound count, can you summon till you hit that count? 

[Terell]

 

They talk about their difficulties with balance.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

 

The Miniwargamer's attempts are at least a good one WarhammerT.

[MexicanNinja]

 

The Miniwargamer's attempts are at least a good one WarhammerT.

You actually watch the garbage miniwargamer's put on youtube?

[Brother Glacius]

I like that point system. (Wounds + attacks) * bravery. Monsters and Warmachines get X2. Seems simple enough.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

You actually watch the garbage miniwargamer's put on youtube?

Well I wanted to see what others are doing to try and fix the game but there are very few videos out there. And WarhammerT linked it first.

 

See how easy it was to throw WT under the bus.

[MexicanNinja]

I never clicked on his link.  Mini wargamers can't even battle report properly (they are always messing up rules and just willy nilly moving models around).  They are in my top 3 worst battle reporters.  In fact, I even tried to give them the benefit of the doubt with watching an AoS batrep they did....and, nope, it was still trash.

[Brother Glacius]

Please keep this thread on topic.

[dkieft]

I like that point system. (Wounds + attacks) * bravery. Monsters and Warmachines get X2. Seems simple enough.

I think it is lacking, but it isn't the worst idea out there.

 

The problem I see is that it considers three things and leaves out everything else. Saves? To Hit? To Wound? Special abilities? etc.

 

That said, it is quick, easy, and better than many other suggestions I have seen.

[Brother Glacius]

Well, to be honest, most to hit and to wounds and saves linger around 4+. And most units that have worst stats typically have some sort of rules to boost them, typically via numbers. I think it is simple and close enough. I don't need exact...not for AoS. It just has to be better than the model count crap they suggest.

 

So we have a point value system, we have rules for limiting shooting into combat, and we have some ideas about how to do ranks. Perhaps for the time being we just use movement trays and break them out at pile-ins and see how that works.

 

Anyone up for giving these a go?

[Terell]

Well I wanted to see what others are doing to try and fix the game but there are very few videos out there. And WarhammerT linked it first.

 

See how easy it was to throw WT under the bus.

Oh my back hurts! Well color me simple I like there batreps.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Oh my back hurts! Well color me simple I like there batreps.

Simple, is that a new paint color to go with AoS?

 

As for the topic Brother G I am not sure what to add besides someone coming up with a tested balanced point system like the Swedish Comp guys work on. But that much work takes a lot of time and effort And I don't have either to give to AoS. I just wanted a Game I could pick up and enjoy without hassles and issues. But as the Miniwar Game guys said this game is not playable (as in enjoyable) as it stands now. I mean we could each try to take even lists but that is asking players not to just take the best out of their warscrolls and that just won't happen.

 

So you could wait for the larger community to come up with a good point system but that will take a while and there will be more than one to begin with before they can narrow it down to one.

[indytims]

But as the Miniwar Game guys said this game is not playable (as in enjoyable) as it stands now.

 

 

 

Not sure about the rest of their bat rep, but the above has already been proven wrong.

 

Plenty of people have been playing AoS - and enjoying it as it stands - since the rules were released last weekend. ;)

 

-Tim

[ClassicFlava]

yeah most everyone i know taht has played it has enjoyed it, but said it is really only good as a beer ad pretzels game

[Brother Glacius]

What they said, is that the game was unbalanced, and therefore, not fun for them. That is a completely valid point. I knew as soon as I read the rules that just bringing any models and tossing them down was not going to be good enough for me. That isn't to say that people can't enjoy that sort of game. But for me, I want something better. Also, I don't expect to solve this in a day. Its going to take a while to iron things out.

[dkieft]

. Its going to take a while to iron things out.

 

And by that time GW will have imposed their eventual restrictions on the new books and fully discontinued the old. Yay!

[Sugarlessllama]

Oh my back hurts! Well color me simple I like there batreps.

 

I like most of the stuff they put up as well. :D

[Brother Glacius]

Ugh, so I played around with that point system a bit and it seems shaky. A zombie by that system is 20 points. A chaos warrior for that system is 24pts. In 8th edition, a zombie was 3pts and a WoC was 14. This is going to take lots of testing.

 

Also, some of the command abilities are just asinine. Unending Legion for Chaos Warriors has got to be the "hands down" most overpowered rule in AoS. To fix it I would come up with a chart of specific units and sizes for them. Then if the player rolled the 4+, they roll a d6 on the chart and that is the unit they can bring in. If they don't have models for them, then no unit arrives.

 

But the fact that I have to rewrite a whole ability to make it playable it just unbelievable. Why couldn't GW release an actual game instead of this crap?

[valourunbound]

I say just delete the ability.

Mortals haven't needed (non-daemon) summoning before, why would they need it now?

All the other summoning things (that I know of) are spells that specify the number of models in the unit, and can be stopped.

One question I have is: do all chaos/undead/lizardmen wizards know all the chaos/undead/lizardmen summoning spells? Or do you have to take the warscroll in order for the wizard to have the spell? Never mind that without points this question is moot.