Impressions after 1st game of AoS

[Romes]

@hobbit

 

Very good point! I hadn't even thought about that, but of course you can't use rules off a warscroll not in play!

 

Why not? (not saying your wrong, I just don't see a way to tell if that's a rule or not)

 

Nah, I wasn't implying a balancing mechanism as much as citing a funny circumstance that I saw on another forum.

OK my bad then.

[Hobbitron]

Why not? (not saying your wrong, I just don't see a way to tell if that's a rule or not)

 

OK my bad then.

 

Here is the section on selecting Warscrolls:

 

 

WARSCROLLS & UNITS All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.

 

If I didn't want to use Skeleton Chariots, I wouldn't bring the warscroll. I wouldn't have the summoning spell available.

 

I guess I'm seeing the warscrolls as printed out on index cards. I bring them if I want to use them, or I leave them in the box.

 

I could be mistaken... but if a Warscroll existing means I'm able to make use of the text, then I can use text from any warscroll for any army. I can already take ANY warscroll I want. I can take a unit of Knits of the Realm along with a Tomb King. Which means that we have to be very clear about what is being brought to a game. If you "purchased" the warscroll, it was a unit that you started with.

 

It's never spelled out clearly. But I think it's very dangerous to assume that because text says it affects other units, doesn't mean you get that without actually purchasing it.

 

If we ever want to have a real conversation about summoning, I am pretty sure the first step is accepting that unless you have purchased a warcroll for that unit, you cannot summon it.

[Romes]

interesting take on it.

 

"It's never spelled out clearly. But I think it's very dangerous to assume that because text says it affects other units, doesn't mean you get that without actually purchasing it."

 

I agree, but that's not enough. =/

 

 

Your interpretation is consistent with something odd I noticed. The special characters in the daemons book don't have summoning values/rules. (can't summon them if they're already there!)

 

*edit: note every other daemon (save nurglings???) has summon rules

[Threejacks]

You only get the benefit from the Warscrolls that are in your army.So if I take my Nagash,sure he can summon tons of stuff,but I need to have those warscrolls,along with all the necessary models already on the table and in action.Unless theres some reason via a formation or other rule outside the 4 page book that would allow you to hold some in reserve.THEN I can use the other benefits of the WS,thus being to summon more of said models.

 

Any other interpretation would let players use all sorts of abilities from other scrolls in their army..I mean why stop at the ones with summoning rules?

 

The other issue im still having with the summoning argument is how it is interpreted.

 

The wording again in the rules;

 

" Models added to your army during the

game (for example, through summoning,

reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do

not count towards the number of models in

the army, but must be counted among the

casualties an army suffer`s."

 

OK..now can someone point out to me were it says "when they die" or "when they are removed"?

 

The way I see it..if you summon your army,yes you WILL likely need to table your opponent in order to win.Now certainly I can see a low model count list with summoning going the sudden death route,perhaps that's something that should not be allowed as in if you have units you intend to summon then you cant choose sudden death.

 

As far as tabling goes,yeah it will be happening for sure,but its not as easy as you think.Just last night Warhammer_T and I had a great little scrap with his Ogres vs My Great Moonclan...I had roughly what would have been around 750 8th points vs what he had was likely over 1k points of Ogres.After 7 turns of me retrograding and throwing out fanatics along the way I still wasn't tabled.Actually out of the 4 games ive played ive only been tabled once(my Oldest boys lizards did it).Armies just don't move as fast as they did in 8th...im sure you could summon stuff forward and all that but still since there is no overrun and everyone essential can disengage and fall back and live to cockblock another turn.

[jollyork]

...and live to cockblock another turn.

 

Now that's a rule. 

[Kremmet]

Any other interpretation would let players use all sorts of abilities from other scrolls in their army..I mean why stop at the ones with summoning rules?

 

Can you name another rule that specifically gives an ability to a model without its presence actually needed in the same way summoning does?  I'm pretty sure we're stopping at summoning due to the verbiage actually making any attempt to direct us.

 

The problem with all the assertions I'm seeing in this thread is that they assume a base system and then apply those judgments onto the rules that exist.  Do I need to have the war scroll in my army to summon the unit?  Even if that's true what defines my army?  There are no actual rules for that.  You're placing a value on summoning based off the idea that everybody is playing with limited war scrolls instead of what the base system actually says (play with whatever you have).

 

The same sort of problem pops up with your later assumption that summoning armies will need to get a major victory all the time.  Well, of course they will!  The only other way to achieve victory (outside of the obvious Sudden Death victories) is by having one or both players give up.  If I never give up and neither do you we will always have major victories.

 

I really get that you guys are trying to solve the problems in the game using the rules as written which is definitely something I respect, but remember that the base game is not the version people are mostly playing.  There is no war scroll limit nor wound limits.  If you want to apply that logic to summoning you can go right ahead, but at the heart of what is written it doesn't matter whether you interpret summoning to mean I have to have the unit in my army or if I have the spell purely through owning the models as there is no history to base the ruling on.  We're left adrift in a four page rules set that does little to help us play the game.  Pretty much every game will have to be prefaced with "in our house rules we...."

[Brother Glacius]

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that you only get to play with rules that are on the war scrolls for your army. And yes, your army is defined by the models you deployed which you must have a war scroll for each one.

 

So then if you don't field zombies, then you don't have a zombie war scroll in your army, which means you don't have the summon zombie spell.

 

And yes, I'm applying logic to AoS...which is probably my first mistake.

[Terell]

[Threejacks]

Nice Batrep!

 

I commented on the pile in moves they were making with models that were already as close as possible to their nearest enemies.Just a minor thing but could make a difference in some situations.

 

I usually go back over the rules after each play session when im learning a system and im pretty sure I did that too during our game,heh.

[ChaosGerbil]

It seems like the simplest solution is to treat summoned units as normal units in every way,* except that they are not deployed at the start of the game but deployed during game play via a summoning ability.

 

 

*(counting against Warscrolls and Wounds and if you are using such house rules)

[Sugarlessllama]

I got a chance on Saturday to play the new game with the starter set models. I actually had a ton of fun! I used the chaos models, and thought that they had a lot of synergy. I think they are going to mesh very well with both the Warriors of Chaos, as well as Daemons of Chaos. I can see a lot of Chaos players picking up the starter set in order to get access of those models. 

 

I am actually really looking forward to getting more games in using my Hammers of Sigmar. :D