GC with eternal warrior?

[Guest]

Sorta screwy. Okay, GC is blessed with Endurance. Gives it eternal warrior, plus several rules it already has.

 

GC takes a wound with ID, what happens?

 

Does the GC rule which converts ID into d3 wounds take place before the Eternal Warrior rule is resolved? It looks like that, but I figured it was worth asking. Here:

 

GC "unstoppable" rule

 

Any attack that normally inflicts instant death or says that the target model is removed from play inflicts d3 wounds on a gargantuan creature or flying gargantuan creature instead.

 

Eternal Warrior special rule:

 

If a model with this special rule suffers an attack that inflicts instant death, it only reduces its wounds by 1, instead of automatically reducing its wounds to 0.

 

As I read it, GC Unstoppable rule changes the attack to instead suffer d3 wounds instead of inflicting instant death. That would mean that eternal warrior would never come into play, as the GC isn't suffering ID, they are taking d3 wounds.

[AbusePuppy]

Hmm. I think you could look at this a couple of different ways, each with their own rules support.

 

First way would be as you say above- EW doesn't matter because the GC rule overrides it.

 

The second way would be that Eternal Warrior takes place before the GC rule intervenes and makes you suffer only one wound (rather than all of them), so the "instead take d3 wounds" part never keys in.

 

Third, and most complicated, way would be that it depends on whose turn it is, since the active player gets to choose the order of effects when multiple things try to happen at once. So on your turn they only take one wound, on the enemy turn they (presumably) take d3.

 

If I were ruling on the issue as a TO, I would probably go with Pax's solution (as I think it has the strongest rule support, if only by a small margin), but there's some room for argument.

[Guest]

If I were ruling on the issue as a TO, I would probably go with Pax's solution (as I think it has the strongest rule support, if only by a small margin), but there's some room for argument.

I agree it has the most rules support, but it seems like a huge nerf for GCs. Perhaps they are supposed to have this nerf?

 

Though I will note that if the attack deals d3 wounds instead of being an ID attack, doesn't that mean that GCs would get FNP against attacks that would normally deal ID?

 

ASIDE: Ah, GW, only you could make a such a rule. One that blurs the closer it is observed.

[wildcat]

What does GC mean?

What does ID mean?

[generalripphook]

Gargantuan Creature and Instant Death

[Guest]

What does GC mean?

What does ID mean?

Yeah, sorry about that. Generalripphook has it right.

[AbusePuppy]

Attacks that cause Instant Death are still Instant Death when mitigated by the Eternal Warrior or Gargantuan Creature rules- they just modify the results of such an attack. You still can't roll FNP against them.

 

Given there are so few GCs in the game- and that they are either intensely powerful (like the Wraithknight) or laughably useless (like most of the Tyranid ones)- I don't feel it's really a big deal. An interesting rules quirk, little more.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Attacks that cause Instant Death are still Instant Death when mitigated by the Eternal Warrior or Gargantuan Creature rules- they just modify the results of such an attack. You still can't roll FNP against them.

 

Given there are so few GCs in the game- and that they are either intensely powerful (like the Wraithknight) or laughably useless (like most of the Tyranid ones)- I don't feel it's really a big deal. An interesting rules quirk, little more.

 

Sounds like you changed your mind from your previous stand point.  It sounds like you are now saying it is reduced to 1 wound because of EW.

[Guest]

(Oh, and FNP is Feel no Pain.)

Attacks that cause Instant Death are still Instant Death when mitigated by the Eternal Warrior or Gargantuan Creature rules- they just modify the results of such an attack. You still can't roll FNP against them.

That's the thing. EW (Eternal Warrior) modifies the results of an attack, while the GC Unstoppable rule modifies the attack prior it it being suffered.

 

Here, the full text of unstoppable:

 

Any attack that normally inflicts instant death or says that the target model is removed from play inflicts d3 wounds on a gargantuan creature or flying gargantuan creature instead.

 

In addition, attacks with the sniper special rule only cause a wound on a roll of 6. Attacks with the poisoned special rule only cause a wound on a 6 (unless the attack's strength would cause a wound on a lower result).

As I read it, the attack is modified when the GC is targeted by an attack. This rule clearly takes place before the model suffers a wound. It's also pretty clear that the d3 wounds would be resolve "instead" of it dealing instant death. If it doesn't deal instant death, why does it deny FNP?

 

Meanwhile, EW has this wording(same quote as before):

 

If a model with this special rule suffers an attack that inflicts instant death, it only reduces its wounds by 1, instead of automatically reducing its wounds to 0.

This rule clearly applies after the model suffers the wound. At no point does it negate instant death, it just just modifies the effects of instant death.

 

Though in all honesty, isn't dealing d3 wounds with FNP allowed better than dealing 1 wound without FNP? I'm not totally sure, but I do think it is both a buff and a weak point for GCs. Does seem like it sort of balances itself out.

 

Given there are so few GCs in the game- and that they are either intensely powerful (like the Wraithknight) or laughably useless (like most of the Tyranid ones)- I don't feel it's really a big deal. An interesting rules quirk, little more.

Yeah, it hasn't come up in game for me yet. Was just looking at that FW MC with biomancy and was trying to figure out if Endurance on a MC would be better than being a GC.

[AbusePuppy]

That's the thing. EW (Eternal Warrior) modifies the results of an attack, while the GC Unstoppable rule modifies the attack prior it it being suffered.

 

Both of them modify the results of the attack, just in different ways. An attack that causes Instant Death is always an attack that causes Instant Death, whether or not the model in question is affected by the Instant Death rule. (That's why you can't roll FNP against an attack causing Instant Death, even if you have Eternal Warrior- it's still an Instant Death attack.)

 

 

Sounds like you changed your mind from your previous stand point.  It sounds like you are now saying it is reduced to 1 wound because of EW.

 

As I said before, I don't think it's wholly clear. There are several reasonable ways you could interpret the rules interactions, though I would lean towards the "d3 wounds regardless" result if the issue were left to me.

[Guest]

Both of them modify the results of the attack, just in different ways. An attack that causes Instant Death is always an attack that causes Instant Death, whether or not the model in question is affected by the Instant Death rule. (That's why you can't roll FNP against an attack causing Instant Death, even if you have Eternal Warrior- it's still an Instant Death attack.)

Well, I do think you may be wrong here, but I've got nothing more than the above quotes, so I suppose we agree to disagree...? At least until we find another source of info.

[AbusePuppy]

Are you arguing that an attack that causes Instant Death somehow loses the Instant Death rule when shooting a GC or model with Eternal Warrior?

[Guest]

Are you arguing that an attack that causes Instant Death somehow loses the Instant Death rule when shooting a GC or model with Eternal Warrior?

I think that the attack that "normally" causes instant death "instead" causes d3 wounds when shooting at a GC.

 

I think that eternal warrior says it changes the effect of instant death from auto-reducing to 0 wounds, to instead reduce 1 wound (though this is still instant death).

[AbusePuppy]

"Instead" on the GC rule doesn't make it not an Instant Death attack- it changes what the attack does from removing all wounds to instead doing d3 wounds. It's still an attack with the Instant Death rule, it's just doing something other than its normal effect because of another model's special rule. You still can't roll FNP against it, because it is still an attack that causes Instant Death.

[InfestedKerrigan]

If it is still an Instant Death attack, I'd think it would always cause 1 wound, never roll the d3, because if d3 is greater than 1, EW reduces to 1, in my unprofessional opinion.  I only play a doctor on television.  

[Guest]

"Instead" on the GC rule doesn't make it not an Instant Death attack- it changes what the attack does from removing all wounds to instead doing d3 wounds. It's still an attack with the Instant Death rule, it's just doing something other than its normal effect because of another model's special rule. You still can't roll FNP against it, because it is still an attack that causes Instant Death.

 

Again, I go back to this guy:

 

 

Any attack that normally inflicts instant death or says that the target model is removed from play inflicts d3 wounds on a gargantuan creature or flying gargantuan creature instead.

 

In addition, attacks with the sniper special rule only cause a wound on a roll of 6. Attacks with the poisoned special rule only cause a wound on a 6 (unless the attack's strength would cause a wound on a lower result).

So, just the bold bits, and it looks pretty clear:

 

"Any attack that normally inflicts instant death inflicts d3 wounds instead."

 

And then, as if to cement the idea that they are modifying attacks before saves, the rule goes on to modify the sniper and poisoned to-wound rolls.

[AbusePuppy]

Saves have nothing to do with whether or not an attack has the Instant Death rule. Neither does modifying the results of the Instant Death rule, as both GCs and EW do.

 

Attacks don't lose their special rules just because you aren't affected by them in the same way other models are. A weapon with the Melta rule still has the Melta rule even when shooting a vehicle with Ceramite Plating.

[Skkipper]

I agree if you are an eternal warrior gargantuan creature ID weapons cause only one wound.