Warlands (Car Game) Rules

[Gailbraithe]

I received the miniatures I ordered from Stan Johnson Miniatures today.  The Drivers and Gunners set he sells fits perfectly in Hot Wheels/Matchbox.  If you're doing models like Sherbert, with closed windows, this isn't a big deal, but I'm putting together a bunch of open-top Jeeps and it's really awesome having drivers and gunners.  Two of the drivers even have arms poking out their windows with guns.

 

The Biker Gang set he sells is kind of rough looking and a bastard to put together (so much glue on my fingers), but the scale of the bikes works really well with the Hot Wheels/Matchbox.

[Gailbraithe]

So I've been reading through the Warlands rules and they're [big bad swear word].  The mechanics themselves are fine, but the writing and editing is horrible.  I want to rewrite the entire damn thing into something actually legible. It'd also be nice if the car design rules had been blessed with the input of a gearhead, because cars do not work like that!  I mean for christsakes, they're aren't even suspension options -- how can you make a car design ruleset and have no rules for suspension!?!  It's so limiting!

 

So anyways, I sat down and tried to make the Weasel Scout Class Buggy using the Mac's Custom Auto Shop and could not figure out how they did it for the longest time, but I did eventually work it out.  Here's some things I figured out:

 

1) Your driver and gunner are free.  Apparently you get the minimum crew for your vehicle for free.  This is the only way the points add up, and the add up perfectly if you make this one assumption.  It'd be nice if the rules actually made that clear though!  The problem is that this makes it unclear if the six point cost of a Pro Driver or Pro Gunner is for an upgrade or a second driver.  I would suggest we house rule it that it costs 4 points to replace the free Basic Driver with a Pro Driver, and each Pro Driver after that costs 6 points.

 

2) Your gunner is actually carrying his gun.  The model for the Weasel clearly shows the guns mounted on the roll cage of the car, but a Vehicle / Buggy / Open has no roof mounting point and no means of adding one, so I was like "What gives?" until I realized the Weasel has a Spud Autocannon, which is Light Weapon, which is man-portable, which means yes...your gunner in the Weasel is just holding a gun and shooting out the windows.  And has a better fire arc than any vehicle mounted weapon except turrets.

 

Anyways, I'm going to work on some alternate car design rules that allow more customization and more equipment.  It'll take me a little time though, as I've got a lot on my plate at the moment.

[Sherbert]

I think its important to remember that this game is not car wars and is not trying to be car wars. The rules are simple to help with the creation of cars because you need to have at least several cars which would be a pain if the rules were more in depth. I agree that it could have been outlined better, but its a cheap rules set. Ill look through to see about the gunner and driver, I thought that the vehicles in the rule book were supposed to a little cheaper but without the customization options. 

[Gailbraithe]

 Ill look through to see about the gunner and driver, I thought that the vehicles in the rule book were supposed to a little cheaper but without the customization options. 

 

 

On page 46 it says you can customize the stock vehcies using the customization rules, with the only limitation being "If a Load-Out is listed then spare structure points cannot be used to add weapons from the Armory."

 

As for being cheaper...I did the Utility Truck, and now I'm confused again.  Apparently the Utility Truck does pay for its driver and a gunner and his shotgun.  Because that's the only way it adds up to 16 points, so you're getting no savings there at all.  And technically, you'd be better off going custom because then you'd get a free automatic pistol and 2 free knives.

 

Also, all of the prebuilt trucks have "Ram Damage AP 2 (front only)" listed as a special rule, which suggests its a standard rule for Truck type vehicles, but [big bad swear word] me if I can find any mention of it in the rules.

 

This is a seriously frustrating rules set.

 

I think its important to remember that this game is not car wars and is not trying to be car wars. 

 

 

Sure, sure, I'm not suggesting going to that level of crazy, but I think there's a lot of room for improvement and fine tuning.

 

Like, for example, tires have basically nothing to do with off-road capabilities -- I've got top of the line off-road tires on my Jeep, but they matter a heck of lot less than the suspension and gearing.  And the thing is, off-road suspension and gearing does give you greater control on rough terrain, but it comes at a very real cost in terms of speed and high-speed handling. My Jeep isn't any heavier than your average ricer and has a V6 engine that is burlier than any ricer, but my top speed craps out around 90 mph, while the ricer can hit 200 mpg easy -- and thanks to the off-road suspension I can't make high speed turns or drift!  At al!  Drift in a Jeep and you'll roll every single time.  But I can muscle my way out of mud that would break a ricer's engine.  Another difference is that if I went nose to nose with a ricer and we both revved our engines and pushed against each other, my off-road gearing means I'd shove him back with ease, and he couldn't move me (though, realistically, I'd roll right over your average Nissan).

 

Plus there's a lot of little [big bad swear word] that just bugs the hell out of me.  Like the Blacktop Racing Tires, which I guess are supposed to be racing slicks.  That's just ridiculous though, because real racing slicks would be useless in a post apocalypse and only provide an advantage on perfectly maintained tracks where the vehicle can be run at high enough speed to heat the tires and make them sticky.  Slicks will get torn apart on routinely maintained streets like those of Bellingham, and would be utterly destroyed by unmaintained, war-torn post-apocalyptic roads.  Plus, they are complete [big bad swear word] at low speeds when running cold and even on a perfect track they have to be replaced ridiculously often (in Nascar they replace the tires every time they refuel).  Basically slicks only provide an advantage in very high end racing and once the world comes to so will they. And then the All-Weather Tires that only provide benefit in wet conditions?  Do these guys not understand why they're called "All-Weather"???  All-Weather Tires are basically low-grade off-road tires.  The deeper tread that provides greater grip in rain also provides greater grip in dry conditions.  It's literally feels like the guys who wrote these rules learned everything they know about cars from Car Wars.  

 

Really, the tire options should be like Salvaged (provides no benefit), Solid (2 points, ignore first Tire Damage result), All-Weather Tires (2 points, +1 to control rolls), Off-Road Tires (4 points, ignores first tire damage result, +1 to control rolls).  And Off-Road capability should be a result of a Drive choice that combines suspension and gearing, like Front Wheel Drive (0 points), 4 Wheel Drive (3 points, move normally in cross country terrain), Off-Road Rig (6 points, move slow in rough terrain) and then equipment options like Monster Rig (2 points, cruise in rough terrain, +2 control cross country/rough terrain, -1 CMV; -1 45° Turn, -1 Slow Speed, -2 Cruising Speed, -3 Fast Speed).   But that's just off the top of my head.

[generalripphook]

You mentioned there were a lot of other car games out there right? Are there any others that you feel would more accurately have car designs?

 

And do you have any problems with the rules other than the car construction?

[Gailbraithe]

You mentioned there were a lot of other car games out there right? Are there any others that you feel would more accurately have car designs? And do you have any problems with the rules other than the car construction?

Other than Car Wars (using the optional post-apocalypse rules), I can't think of a better basic set of rules that I've seen. Most of the competing games out there are way more "board gamey" and don't really allow you to design your own cars.  Car Wars is way too fiddly -- i mean, do we really want to be calculating MPG and fuel tank capacity?  No.  Sherbert is right when he said Car Wars is really about having your one car -- it does support large skirmishes with multiple cars per player, but it does bog down really fast and becomes unplayable.  Just watching Sherbert demi the game, I could see Warlands is a lot better for multiple car battles and the driving rules are just fine, but the creation rules just need some reworking so that you can actually feel the difference between driving a Marauder vs driving a Veneno.

 

I think improving the car design rules and bringing some more realism to them would also really enhance campaign play.  Imagine a campaign where some mission will call for patrolling rough country -- you'll want to have powerful of-road vehicles for that.  Other missions will require you to enter a race to win some valuable piece of tech for your warband, like a generator or supply of fuel -- so you'll need some fast supercars for that.

 

And really, my biggest problem with the construction rules is that they are poorly written and I think two people could come up with radically different point costs for vehicles depending on how they read them. I can see these rules leading to a lot of arguments. Like, I can't find any rule that says Nomads can't buy Wastelander units or any rule that says they can.  This is important, because the Nomad unit list has no drivers or gunners.  It has Leaders, Champions, Bosses and Militia, but not Warriors, RPG Teams, Mortar Teams, or Molers.  The Nomad Leader, Champion and Boss are all 1 point more than their Wastelander equivalent, but are also superior fighters.  The Nomad Militia are also 1 point more then Wastelander Warriors, but inferior fighters.  So it seems like the superior "heroes" are balanced by inferior warriors -- otherwise, why would anyone ever take Nomad Militia?  They're crappier, more expensive Warriors, and there is no sensible reason to take them if you have access to Warriors.  But that would imply that Nomads can't get Drivers, Gunners, RPG Teams, Mortar Teams, or Molers -- but then all of the Nomad vehicles have Drivers and Gunners, and the Nomad Transport Truck can take an RPG team or Mortar team.  And Sherbert was right that the Nomads special ability re: Loners makes no sense at all.  It's like "your special power is rewriting your list at the last second and slowing down the start of the game!" 

 

Still, no matter how much I complain about the poor writing, I do think the basic structure -- the mechanics -- are all solid the whole thing just needs a heavy edit and some polishing.  I really can't wait to play a game.

 

[Sherbert]

those jeeps and bikes look great. Your right about the size of the bikers and crew. I might just have to bit the bullet and buy the more expensive stuff. sigh, if only ramshackles scale was a little bit bigger. 

[Gailbraithe]

[Sherbert]

[big bad swear word] that was fast. they look great, your right, the crew add a lot to the vehicles.

 

What will you be using them as in Warlands, buggies rugged raiders?

[Gailbraithe]

From l. to r.:  Rugged Raider, The Beast, Rugged Raider, Dune Destroyer

 

My favorite is the Dune Destroyer.  The Dismounted Biker Gang I got from Stan Johnson had the one guy laying down, and I bent one of his feet so now he's laying across the hood, pointing a shotgun, with his feet hooked onto the roll cage.  I've decided his name is "Maniac."

[Sherbert]

http://www.michtoy.com/item-ORH-72005-Roman_Gladiators.html

 

here are those gladiator models I was talking about tonight. I will probably wait until after the trip to order anything but I am really liking the conversion potential of these guys.

[Gailbraithe]

Those are nice!  I also like the Chechen Rebels.  Might have to pick some of those up.

[Gailbraithe]

Sherbert, where are you getting that Drivers and Gunners can't buy body armor from?  I can't find anything in the rules that says that, and it directly contradicts the Personal Equipment section:

 

This section contains personal equipment other

than weapons. Personal equipment can be used

by any human member of your force including

drivers, gunners and pedestrians.

[Sherbert]

what page did you find that on?

[Gailbraithe]

what page did you find that on?

 

Page 73 of the printer friendly version of the pdf.

 

In other news, I'm working on doing point breakdowns of the different chassis (I was up til 4 in the morning!) and so far the biggest discovery I've made is that the points values are utter bull[big bad swear word] and full of traps.

 

For example, with the 3-Door Bug (i.e. hatchback option) you're paying 2 extra points for 1 less weapon mount point, and then with the 4-Door Bug you're paying 4 extra points for 2 more mounts.  The number of doors has zero game effect, which means basically the 3-Door Bug is a waste of 2 points.  Then with the The Cruiser 2 door vs 4 door, you're paying 2 extra points for 2 extra weapon mounts.  An its worth noting that all of these extra mounts are a second Left and Right side mount, which you're never going to need or use.  So in summary:  the 3-Door Bug is a complete trap (paying more to get less), and the 4-Door version of both Bug and Cruiser are going to be a waste of points (4 vs 2) in 99.9% of builds. 

 

Also, if Gunner's can't buy Personal Weapons, then I was right, there is no way to build the Weasel buggy.  The Weasel comes with a Spud Autogun which can't be vehicle mounted.  The Spud Autogun and the LMG have the same stats (R: 16", D: 4d6, ROF: 2, AP: 2), but the Spud Autogun cost 4 points vs 5 points, has a 180°  vs a 90° arc, and if the Gunner survives a crash he can carry the Spud Autogun vs having to leave the LMG behind.   All for 4 less points.

 

Also, it's easier to hit a stationary sub-compact than to shoot a stationary full-size pickup.  That means at 100 paces, you're more likely to hit this VW Bug (TN 6):

 

Than this Ford F-450 (TN 7):

 

Despite the fact that the truck is three the size of the subcompact.  Also, this VW Buggy (TN 8) is harder to hit than the VW Bug (TN 6) despite being the exact same size:

 

Also there is no way to convert the VW Bug into an off-roader without chopping the top off, despite the fact that the VW Bug is one of the first cars that was widely converted to off-roading purposes (that's literally what that VW Buggy is -- a modified Bug; same chassis, same suspension, same engine.

[Sherbert]

that rule you quoted applies to pedestrians, gunners and drivers do not count as pedestrians, thus you can give them gear.

 

the door thing would apply for scenarios. one of the scenarios that Greyson and I played last night depended on how many extra seats you have in your vehicles, so more seats equals more better, but only for scenarios. I think the game functions a lot better with scenarios and even more so in a campaign.

[generalripphook]

that rule you quoted applies to pedestrians, gunners and drivers do not count as pedestrians, thus you can give them gear.

 

the door thing would apply for scenarios. one of the scenarios that Greyson and I played last night depended on how many extra seats you have in your vehicles, so more seats equals more better, but only for scenarios. I think the game functions a lot better with scenarios and even more so in a campaign.

 

 

But it says even gunners and drivers. 

[Gailbraithe]

that rule you quoted applies to pedestrians, gunners and drivers do not count as pedestrians, thus you can give them gear.

 

the door thing would apply for scenarios. one of the scenarios that Greyson and I played last night depended on how many extra seats you have in your vehicles, so more seats equals more better, but only for scenarios. I think the game functions a lot better with scenarios and even more so in a campaign.

 

The problem is that there is no connection between # of doors and # of passengers.  Whether your Bug is a 2 door, 3 door or 4 door, it carries 3 passengers.  Rules As Written, the only thing you get when you buy the hatchback Bug is the opportunity to throw away two points and a rear mount position.  It would make a LOT of sense to house rule that a passenger can only bail out if there is door to bail out of.  Like passengers in the backseat of a two-door would be stuck where they are in the case of a ram or crash, since scrambling over the driver and gunner would be out of the question.  But that's not what the rules say.

 

And to reiterate what Eli said, it says even gunners and drivers. Even more humorously, according to your interpretation of the rules the Weasel Scout Buggy is the only vehicle in the game that ever use the Gunner's Arc.  None of the other vehicles come with or have a Light Weapon as part of their Load Out, and apparently you can't buy them.  Well, I guess you could replace the Gunner with a Boss, Hero, Champion or Leader.  That would let you select a Light Weapon.  So really, it's more of an Individual Character's Arc than a Gunner's Arc, since non-Weasel Scout Gunners can't ever take advantage of it.

[Sherbert]

I could just be missing it but I still dont see where it specifies that a gunner and driver are pedestrians. It says on page 76 that pedestrians can buy gear, weapons, etc, but the gunners and drivers are not pedestrians. It does not say pedestrians in their profile. 

[Fix]

If it helps, Page 19 says that when a gunner disembarks, he becomes a pedestrian.  And it certainly says that a pedestrian can become a gunner when embarking.

[Gailbraithe]

I could just be missing it but I still dont see where it specifies that a gunner and driver are pedestrians. It says on page 76 that pedestrians can buy gear, weapons, etc, but the gunners and drivers are not pedestrians. It does not say pedestrians in their profile. 

 

Honestly, it looks to me like they left the Model Type line off because they were trying to cram everything onto one page. I think they should just be considered Model Type: Pedestrian.  I mean what else could they be?  I'd define them as Pedestrian/Crew that can only be purchased as part of a vehicle package.  

 

I'd go with:

 

Model Type: Pedestrian/Crew

Gear: Automatic Pistol, Knife

 

Options:

Basic Driver

May exchange the Automatic Pistol for a Shotgun or a Rifle at no additional points’ cost.

May purchase Fire Bombs for additional 1 point.

May purchase Raider Body Armor for additional 1 point.

 

Pro-Driver

May exchange the Automatic Pistol for an Assault Rifle, Shotgun, or SMG at no additional points’ cost.

May purchase Fire Bombs for additional 1 point.

May purchase Grenades for additional 2 points.

May purchase Raider Body Armor for additional 1 point.

May purchase Blaster Body Armor for additional 2 points.

 

Basic Gunner

If vehicle has no mounted weapon, must purchase Spud Autocannon for 4 points. (Applies to first Gunner only.)

May exchange Spud Autocannon for Personal Missile Launcher for 3 additional points. 

May exchange the Automatic Pistol for a Shotgun or a Rifle at no additional points’ cost.

May purchase Fire Bombs for additional 1 point.

May purchase Raider Body Armor for additional 1 point.

 

Pro-Gunner

If vehicle has no mounted weapon, must purchase Light Weapon at normal cost. (Applies to first Gunner only.)

May exchange the Automatic Pistol for an Assault Rifle, Shotgun, or SMG at no additional points’ cost.

May purchase Fire Bombs for additional 1 point.

May purchase Grenades for additional 2 points.

May purchase Raider Body Armor for additional 1 point.

May purchase Blaster Body Armor for additional 2 points.

 

Special Rules: 

If Pro-Drivers are on the same vehicle crew as Basic Drivers, the Pro-Driver always take the wheel before Basic Drivers.

If Pro-Gunners are on the same vehicle crew as Basic Gunners, the Pro-Gunner always crews vehicle mounted weapons before Basic Gunners.

If multiple mounted vehicle weapons are available, Pro-Gunners will always crew turret mounted weapons before other choices.

[smashthedean]

When the regular rule nitpicking is over and you guys start in on some homebrew Campaign rules let me know!

[Sherbert]

im going to try and get Greyson to work with me to create some campaign rules and scenarios so that when I get back from my trip we can do a big campaign. 

[Wiccus]

Yeah I think we should get a few games under our belts before tearing the rules apart and rebuilding them. Once all of us have been able to try it then we can collaborate on various house rules if they are necessary. From the games I have watched the game seems pretty damn fun as is.

[Sherbert]

could someone print off a copy of the rules and put it in a binder for the shop. That way people can use it and play Warlands at any time.