lustriangod2 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Throgg is 300 pts holy smokes. I will admit I owned 18 Chaos Trolls and traded them but still it seems a bit harsh. On an unrelated note is there a decent looking Chaos Troll out there in this world? What's wrong with the current river trolls,if you are good at putting unused bits on models. You could make them very chaos like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lustriangod2 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 By the way, 300 points for Throgg. I think they need to rethink that crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 I don't have the skills you do man. You are a great painter. I think they look a bit too goofy to be chaos trolls. Very much aquatic and the weapons don't match well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 If they can do as good a job with alignment issues, combat issues, charge issues, etc... as they've done with magic, then they'll have something great! Otherwise, I think BroHammer is by far the farthest along toward something truly superior to 8th ;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 If they can do as good a job with alignment issues, combat issues, charge issues, etc... as they've done with magic, then they'll have something great! Otherwise, I think BroHammer is by far the farthest along toward something truly superior to 8th ;) You might be biased! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 You might be biased! Surely not! I just happen to really agree with that Orkdork guy! And I feel a special connection to Nathan the Knight. Hard to put a finger on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Throgg is t5 with 4 wounds and regen and a s5 bw and s7 4 attacks plus the ld buffs to warbeasts and monsters(just going by memory)? He allows a lot of versatility with the ld buff allowing them to spread out. Not to mention the troll core horde which is filthy. 300 might be a bit much but it's closer to what it should be than what the idiot writers gave him in the woc book.. 250 or so sounds about right. Obviously the writers may have a few too many puke stains on their clothes! ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 I think what Orkdork is saying is that they did a great job on what they addressed, but that they didn't address some of the bigger issues. I wonder whether many of the people thinking about rules updates for 8th have really explored and experienced the shenanigans and abuse that is possible with the current charge/movement/b2b combat rules. I think if a person has really seen first hand what is possible under the current rules, then those particular rules will move near the top of the list of things that need to be fixed! So when I don't see them included in a revision, in the back of my mind I'm wondering if the writers are as intimately familiar with the nuances of the rules as rules writers should be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valourunbound Posted July 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Different people are bothered about different things. I think that the writers like the movement shenanigans in 8th edition. I think a lot of people like them. Of all the things people complain about (of which there are many) movement is not typically one of them. EDIT: I've play Eric. I know about movement shenanigans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicFlava Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 I don't mind the movement shenanigans either. I think Swedish comp addresses cheap character spamming to address it iirc. Also things like sabretusks are usually pretty easy to kill so its not like there aren't a lot of counters out there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Some of the movement stuff is just about cleaning up things that everyone fudges already. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people reform units that literally cannot reform except to turn exactly 180 degrees. And is it fun to not be able to move your army because the tails of you units are hitting the building you're next to? So some of it is fixing stuff that's clumsy and that people just "cheat" constantly because it's clumsy.For the diverter/base-to-base/character stuff, it's not that there aren't counters. I realize that of course magic missiles can shoot sabretusks. But that's not a reason to allow something, just because there are counters. Rather it should be about whether it's fun. Sure, different people have different definitions of fun. But I believe most people would prefer if battles were about strategic positioning, and visually satisfying tactics like outflanking, holding a battle line, and generally doing things that make a little more intuitive sense. Right now, outside of the obvious math (e.g. skullcrushers > knights of the realm) it's about diverter count (I have more diverters than you have ways to deal with them), base to base tricks (I challenge with my champ, in the middle, have a character on one corner, and half your models can't attack), characters (I put my 1+ reroll character on the flank of my infantry block and you can barely scratch me), and awkward unit positioning (you're in my flank but can't charge my flank, so you can't charge me). Some people think that's fun, sure. And we can do it with the best of them, believe me. But I just don't believe most folks find that to be a satisfying set of determining factors to decide the outcome of combats.For the record I've heard a lot of people complain about challenges leaving models out of contact; about not being able to charge a unit that they clearly can contact; about a single wolf rider goblin leading a unit of elite infantry around by the nose. When it comes to using tiny rules minutiae to decide the outcome of a combat, I don't really believe that "a lot of people like them". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 I sincerely doubt 9th Age will completely ignore these issues. I actually have high-hopes for those guys, and if we could easily collaborate, that'd be the direction I'd advocate. In the meantime, my brothers and I want to play with better rules. We made a BroHammer version of 40K that we found MUCH more satisfying to play. It was such a successful experiment that we realized we really did want better rules for WFB as well, since it's really our game of choice. In the end, if the Swedes do the work, awesome! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Fo-sho. I sincerely hope 9th age is good enough in the areas we think are clunky that we can just play that! If you're interested in collaborating on 9th age you could help us both by doing the legwork to find out how to participate! I personally have no interest in doing the tedious heavy lifting of re-costing, re-comping, etc... all that game balance stuff that isn't about clever or elegant rules, but is about sitting down and spending lots of time... blech :) But definitely would love to contribute to fixes for the core mechanics that make game play less rewarding than it could be (IMO of course)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 I wonder if anyone in all these rules creation scenarios will allow non characters to be the general. In 40k you can pick anyone you want to be the warlord. I bet the game would be a little more interesting if it allowed anyone you wanted to be the general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted August 1, 2015 Report Share Posted August 1, 2015 The two concepts are not analogous as the general's Inspiring Presence is not something that exists in 40k. Interesting doesn't always mean good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted August 1, 2015 Report Share Posted August 1, 2015 It does indeed exist in multiple armies such as Space Marines and even Tau. What detriment could be caused but not always using a character? If anything, by not choosing a character a person takes a great risk. I think more interesting is exactly what the game needs instead of trying to create unkillable generals or character based death stars. I have been watching replays of a big tournament that has just about every army consisting 3 characters in some huge unit of massive point denial. I can see why some people found 8th a little predictable. I never was part of the tournament scene but these games are so boring to watch at times. I know at least half the moves even before the game begins. Now it doesn't justify a complete change but allowing anything for a general might just encourage people to not spend so many points on one or for that matter protecting one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 The special rules that Tau and SM HQ's give out are still not analogous to the ubiquitous Inspiring Presence that existed in WHFB. They're just not on the same level because of how leadership differs as a stat between the two games. As for your second comment about encouraging people not to spend so many points on lords and heroes the example you gave is why that isn't true. Those Deathstar units aren't effective because one guy is the general, they're effective because characters are so amazing at points denial and force multiplication. If anything your suggestion to allow anything to become the general a la 40k would exacerbate this problem as they now have no reason to not invest heavily in those combat lords (or just going ham with wizard lords) as they're no longer giving up extra VP/losing possible Ld bonuses upon their death. I'm not saying that the rule is bad per se for 40k, but the way these common stats worked in WHFB and how they work in 40k are not the same. If anything the kind of change you're suggesting works far better in AoS where the general gives out certain benefits, but otherwise doesn't interact with leadership (or bravery as it was renamed) on the same scale as WHFB did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valourunbound Posted August 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 The 9th Age alpha has been released: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/news/index.php?news/7-the-9th-age-version-0-1-alpha/&s=7f3dc9f2932f99d5fd9e5f196221e3bbeccb3223 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Now that is more like it! Looks really promising! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Awesome. Go Swedish people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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