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BroHammer - WFB 8.5 for all us bros (and sisters!)


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Hey folks,

Micah and I have spent some time and thought writing up a set of rules changes to make 8th more playable and fun.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hv3JhuXB2PIkHgZCZjuWRKwt1uaW-zWGUm2D5GIPYLA/edit?usp=sharing

 

Note that this is a living document so bear in mind that some things are still work in progress.  We'll put a version number on it when we've got our first "ready for playtesting" version done, but I wanted to get your feedback sooner rather than later.  Anyone who would like to comment directly in the google doc, PM me your email address and I'll give you permissions (please comment after putting some thought into it, as we've already put quite a bit of thought into the rules as they stand!)

 

The intro text, to give you an idea what we address:
 

 
Introduction (section editor: anyone)

This is a set of rule revisions to WFB 8th edition, with the intention of addressing a handful of the most severe “pain points” in 8th edition, with as little change as necessary to address them cleanly.  Pain point examples include (in no particular order):

  • Awkward movement and charge situations, including movement/charge exploitations that can be used to gain a non-intuitive but very effective advantage.

  • Awkward combat alignments and combatant restrictions as to who can attack, whom they can attack, etc.

  • Single-model cav and infantry characters leaving units, frequently moving from unit to unit, etc., which in general adds little to the game and creates fiddly situations, ranking up issues, etc.

  • Rolling 6 dice at big spells is too commonplace and effective, especially for something without a strategic counter.

  • Unifying multi-part model stat lines for ridden monsters, in the interest of simplification.

  • Cleaning up terrain rules to remove “True Line of Sight”, an awkward and abusable mechanic.

  • Changing challenges to make them just as fun but less abusable, and cleaning up characters in combat rules to simplify.

  • End Times and Forgeworld

 

 

Please take a look and let us know what you think. At some point after these rules are finished, solidified and sufficiently play-tested, we may host a tournament using these rules, so get to know them and help us improve them!

 

Thanks,
Nathan and Micah (a.k.a. orkdork)

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While I like the path that a lot of this is on, it currently makes my beastmen army practically unworkable.  Removal of the horde rule, re-rollable 1/2+ armor, being able to redirect well with single models, and no combat rez from challenge overkill are all hits to beasts haha.

 

 

A lot of your changes are looking quite good, but keep in mind that some armies need those things not to abuse, but to compete.

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If you want help with some revisions to the beastmen book, let me know.   Most of it is small points reductions to adjust the internal ballance, but I would love to have a hand in it.

 

Definitely would love to get your help and input, especially if you've done some play testing on the core rules changes (since those will predicate the army book changes)  

 

Bear in mind that we'll want to keep unit to unit "power level" as close to current levels as we can, in order to keep current Swedish Comp values more or less accurate.  So "give and take" changes are the best.  That said, point adjustments are the easiest to make, as we could scale Swedish Comp penalty accordingly, to keep Point-to-Comp ratio the same.

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Removal of the horde rule

 

Just wanted to make sure you saw that all front rank models (and their supporters) always get to attack.  This means that against a typical 5-model frontage, where a horde used to get A*7 attacks + 14 supporting attacks, a horde now gets A*10 + 10 supporting attacks!  It's really only against similarly-wide units of 8+ frontage that the horde loses substantial hitting power (going from A*10 + 20, to A*10 + 10)

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I see what you're saying. 

 

 

Just for the RnF unit itself, I hope, and not any characters who are hiding on the far sides of the unit.  That could get real evil real fast :)

 

Nope, all models get to fight!  However RnF can also gang up on a character who is not in a challenge, unless that character goes into hiding.  We are trying to remove all the implications of b2b contact, so that there is no real reason to worry about it other than cosmetic.  It may prove too dangerous to characters, we'll have to see.  We want to start with the simplest and most flexible mechanic and see how it plays.

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Not to be a Debbie downer but there are some things that I really dislike. Redirecting abig part of the strategy in 8th. If you take it out there really aren't many ways to stop a death star. Not letting characters leave units seems silly. Also Swedish is written with 50% lords and heroes in mind so disallowing that could skew your Swedish scores. I am all for combined profiles for monster riders but I think your your formula is off. If i paybfor a 4+ward it should not be reduced. Also by your formula if i buy a 5+ ward item it works just like the 6+ ward item. Combine wounds and take the beat toughness, best ward save, and I could see doing average of the two armor saves being good. Love the LOS changes and magic changes except for losing the spell on a miscast. Sometimes miscasts happen on 2 or 3 dice and that's a pretty harsh penalty. Maybe make the penalty worse if more dice are thrown and less if less dice are thrown. Love the deploy!ment and movement rules too.

 

Just seems like all of the changes benefit deathstars. I see them being too strong in these rules.

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Here are my thoughts (disclaimer: I lack play experience in recent years, so keep in mind that I might be missing something important):

 

Characters not leaving units: independent heroes fighting against a backdrop of mass battle is what makes the game evocative for me. I think characters need to be able to leave units. If changes are needed to prevent dickless moves with über characters handling whole units, let's make those changes (such as all eligible unit members can attack a single character, or some such disadvantage to discourage doing something that is goofy)....which leads to...

 

Did I read this right that all eligible models in a unit could attack a single character? If so, that seems excessive. Sure, all the enemy rnf are trying to pull down the badass, but this implies that the hero's unit is standing around with their thumbs you know where. I like the protection rule for wizards...perhaps a limit on the number of rnf attacks that can be directed at a character if he/she/it is in a unit of 5 or some such

 

Fudge rule on deployment: Hallafreakinluya.

 

Move ignoring 1" other than at end= good

 

Not moving challenge characters: I've been doing this for years. Moving the characters is a PITA and encourages fiddly "it's allowed by the rules so I can do it" tactics.

 

Not steadfast if disrupted: Good

 

Is the miscast effect described the entire effect, i.e. no roll on the old table? If so, it seems reasonable and seems like the big unit killer/game winner spells will only be cast once per game which seems enough.

 

Warmachines: war machines that blow up is fine. It makes good WM like dwarfs better then crappy ones. As for remembering the "can't shoot next turn" thing...that's easy....we have been turning the machine around for 30 years.

 

No dangerous terrain rolls: terrain needs to mean something. At least you seem to be returning LOS effects of terrain, so that's something, but no DT rolls really make terrain of minimal importance. The imbalance of MC and MI should be addressed in other ways, like a model is eliminated on a failed DT test (turns his big fat ogre ankle and spends the rest of the battle sitting there howling about it)

 

Standard heights for LOS: definately. The current system can basically be summarized as "everybody can hit everything if I'm will to argue long enough"

 

There are my 2c for what they are worth. One thing for sure, GW sure has stimulated thought and conversation. It will be interesting to see what the community comes up with....

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Thanks for the feedback!  I'll get right to it :)

 

Redirectors are alive and well!  The only thing you can't do is use a unit of less than 5 models to change the overrun direction.  You can still, for example, sacrifice two sabretusks for the same result (the deathstar gets just one overrun).  Or you could use a unit of 5 fast cav.  We thought about making the limit 3+ models, to just eliminate single and 2-model units... do you think that would be better, so that a FC unit of 5 could take a few casualties, and still redirect?  Bear in mind that this doesn't clean up the silly "single file fast cav charge gate" thing, while the 1-rank minimum helps a lot with that issue.

 
Characters sticking in units is meant to be experimental... we'll see if we think it is worth the cost in flexibility.  There's a good chance we'll remove it, especially if folks don't like it, as "super characters" are one of the lesser evils :)
 
50% characters could also go back in... I'm not attached to either way on that one as I can argue for either case.  I'll put it back for now, in the interest of making fewer changes!
 
I kindly disagree on the combined stats profile.  If you formerly had a 3W, 1++/5++ Lord, riding a 5W, 4+/-- Manticore, I don't think you should get a 5++ ward for all 8W on the combined profile!  You paid for 5++ Ward on 3 Wounds... you are getting a bargain really by getting a 6++ Ward on 8 Wounds!
 
Regarding miscast penalty, it does get worse with the number of dice thrown, did you note that in addition to losing the spell, you roll d6 for each power die rolled and take a wound on a 4+?  So with 6 dice you're probably taking 3 Wounds!  As noted in the comments, we might change this to a 5+, need to do some math first and see the distribution tables for 2d6 - 6d6.
 
Deathstars got worse by virtue of 3 character max and disruptable steadfast.  The only thing that makes them slightly better is the single-model redirector going away, and the miscast table going away (which makes it safer to cast from within a unit... but still much more deadly to the wizard).
 
Thoughts?  Keep 'em coming!
 
Thanks!
 
 

Not to be a Debbie downer but there are some things that I really dislike. Redirecting abig part of the strategy in 8th. If you take it out there really aren't many ways to stop a death star.

 

Not letting characters leave units seems silly. Also Swedish is written with 50% lords and heroes in mind so disallowing that could skew your Swedish scores. I am all for combined profiles for monster riders but I think your your formula is off. If i paybfor a 4+ward it should not be reduced. Also by your formula if i buy a 5+ ward item it works just like the 6+ ward item. Combine wounds and take the beat toughness, best ward save, and I could see doing average of the two armor saves being good. Love the LOS changes and magic changes except for losing the spell on a miscast. Sometimes miscasts happen on 2 or 3 dice and that's a pretty harsh penalty. Maybe make the penalty worse if more dice are thrown and less if less dice are thrown. Love the deploy!ment and movement rules too.

Just seems like all of the changes benefit deathstars. I see them being too strong in these rules.

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Thanks Scott, great feedback!

 

Alright that's two against keeping characters with units.  I'll take that out for now and we can play with it separately to see what we think.

 

I also wasn't happy with the directing attacks against characters rules, but we haven't thought of an elegant way yet to attack characters without base-to-base considerations (which we're trying to remove).  Another idea (which I changed it to, see document) is that up to two models, and two supporting attacks, can go against each character.  This is a happy middle between three models that could theoretically go against a model in b2b, and one (which might be the case if the model is tucked into a corner).  Wizards can still be protected, but at a slight cost in attacks (the wizard still occupies his spot in the fighting right, but doesn't get to swing).  Do you like that approach better?

 

We went back and forth on war machines, and I tend to agree about the dwarf machines point, so I'll just remove that change for now in the interest of fewer non-essential changes.  Thanks!

 

Yes, the miscast table goes away, you just lose the spell (as I agree: one IF casting per game is plenty) and the wizard has a good chance of dying if lots of dice were thrown.

 

Dangerous and Difficult Terrain still disrupts steadfast, provides cover, and Woods give stubborn to Skirmishers.  I just think that 1 in 6 Knights that charge over rough ground dies is terrible and doesn't add much.  In general unlikely rolls with stupid results are bad mechanics.  This is the logic behind misfire as well, but it seems more ingrained to me.  I'll leave the DT changes as is for now but would like to hear from more people: does Dangerous Terrain add or subtract to the game for you?  I know my OFCC opponents and I almost universally agreed to remove the special terrain rules, as there is plenty of playing to do with just normal terrain :)

 

Thanks again Scott, let me know your thoughts!

 

Here are my thoughts (disclaimer: I lack play experience in recent years, so keep in mind that I might be missing something important):

Characters not leaving units: independent heroes fighting against a backdrop of mass battle is what makes the game evocative for me. I think characters need to be able to leave units. If changes are needed to prevent dickless moves with über characters handling whole units, let's make those changes (such as all eligible unit members can attack a single character, or some such disadvantage to discourage doing something that is goofy)....which leads to...

Did I read this right that all eligible models in a unit could attack a single character? If so, that seems excessive. Sure, all the enemy rnf are trying to pull down the badass, but this implies that the hero's unit is standing around with their thumbs you know where. I like the protection rule for wizards...perhaps a limit on the number of rnf attacks that can be directed at a character if he/she/it is in a unit of 5 or some such

Fudge rule on deployment: Hallafreakinluya.

Move ignoring 1" other than at end= good

Not moving challenge characters: I've been doing this for years. Moving the characters is a PITA and encourages fiddly "it's allowed by the rules so I can do it" tactics.

Not steadfast if disrupted: Good

Is the miscast effect described the entire effect, i.e. no roll on the old table? If so, it seems reasonable and seems like the big unit killer/game winner spells will only be cast once per game which seems enough.

Warmachines: war machines that blow up is fine. It makes good WM like dwarfs better then crappy ones. As for remembering the "can't shoot next turn" thing...that's easy....we have been turning the machine around for 30 years.

No dangerous terrain rolls: terrain needs to mean something. At least you seem to be returning LOS effects of terrain, so that's something, but no DT rolls really make terrain of minimal importance. The imbalance of MC and MI should be addressed in other ways, like a model is eliminated on a failed DT test (turns his big fat ogre ankle and spends the rest of the battle sitting there howling about it)

Standard heights for LOS: definately. The current system can basically be summarized as "everybody can hit everything if I'm will to argue long enough"

There are my 2c for what they are worth. One thing for sure, GW sure has stimulated thought and conversation. It will be interesting to see what the community comes up with....

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@ClassicFlava

 

Diverters are still alive and well, you just can't force the enemy unit to swing it's ass out in a stupid direction with just a few models.

 

I have played more O&G vs. Brets than is healthy, and usually with 4 fast cav units on my side, so I've been doing this silliness for over 15 years... It's not good for the game :(

 

That said, I can still get a ton of mileage out of these units, as I'll still divert somewhat, just to a lesser degree.

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Miscasts - wounds for every 4+ is simply too much. You will kill a typical hero wizard if they miscast using 4 dice. Also, does this replace the miscast table? or is this in addition to? If it is in addition to, then I'd make the wounds happen on a 6+, if these replace the miscast rules, then I'd say a 5+, allowing for ward saves. In fact, I'd want ward saves to always be allowed (but no rerollable ward saves).

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I will go with Option 3 for the character movement. I will give an actual list example for my reason.

 

My favorite army is Dogs of War. I know it's probably not the best example but it is my favorite with a list I want to play so I am using it. The main characters that people choose from are very weak in comparison to most within fantasy. They are basically Empire Knock offs or even worse if selecting the paymaster "which you must". I have conceded that my list will have the necessary functional characters but they cannot be "combat" characters (except for the Capatus which we get one as well) and I need to hide them in skirmisher bunkers. I have chosen halflings to hide them in as they are 6 pts a piece and have BS4 bows with LD8. I think that is awesome but one thing that worries me is if people hit them magic missiles/normal missiles or perhaps a stone thrower. You see halflings are Toughness 2 and that is terrible. As Sean Zern once said to me "Killing halflings has got to be like squashing ripe pumpkins." I fear he is correct  and I know if I take at least one good round of shooting my bunker is screwed. I will need to leave said bunker to seek shelter somewhere else.

 

That is why I want to be able to leave units. Pumpkins don't always make the best body guards.

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Miscasts - wounds for every 4+ is simply too much. You will kill a typical hero wizard if they miscast using 4 dice. Also, does this replace the miscast table? or is this in addition to? If it is in addition to, then I'd make the wounds happen on a 6+, if these replace the miscast rules, then I'd say a 5+, allowing for ward saves. In fact, I'd want ward saves to always be allowed (but no rerollable ward saves).

 

I'm actually not pleased with any of the target values.

 

I'm thinking you should roll # of dice used to cast -3 against the 4+ target.

 

Read this as "with a wound on a 4+, a caster throwing 6 dice has a 17.1% probability of taking at least 3 wounds".

 


wounds:     1+           2+           3+

2 dice 4+    2.1%       0.7%     

3 dice 4+    6.4%       3.7%       0.9%     

4 dice 4+    12.3%     9.0%       4.1%     

5 dice 4+    18.8%     15.8%     9.8%     

6 dice 4+    25.8%     23.3%     17.1%     

 

2 dice 5+    1.5%       0.3%     

3 dice 5+    5.2%       1.9%       0.3%     

4 dice 5+    10.5%     5.3%       1.4%     

5 dice 5+    17.1%     10.6%     4.1%     

6 dice 5+    24.2%     17.2%     8.5%     

 

2 dice 6+    0.8%       0.1%     

3 dice 6+    3.1%       0.5%       0.0%     

4 dice 6+    6.9%       1.7%       0.2%     

5 dice 6+    11.6%     3.8%       0.7%     

6 dice 6+    17.3%     6.9%       1.6%

 

python code (these are not the cumulative probabilities. I accumulated in the print function):

 

def mcast(d, w, trials=100000):
    wnds = [0.0] * (d + 1)
    for _ in range(trials):
        if sum(map(lambda x: int(x / 6),np.random.random_integers(1,6,d))) >= 2:
            wnds[sum(map(lambda x: int(x / w),np.random.random_integers(1,6,d)))] += 1.0
    return map(lambda x: float(x / trials), wnds)
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I will go with Option 3 for the character movement. I will give an actual list example for my reason.

 

My favorite army is Dogs of War. I know it's probably not the best example but it is my favorite with a list I want to play so I am using it. The main characters that people choose from are very weak in comparison to most within fantasy. They are basically Empire Knock offs or even worse if selecting the paymaster "which you must". I have conceded that my list will have the necessary functional characters but they cannot be "combat" characters (except for the Capatus which we get one as well) and I need to hide them in skirmisher bunkers. I have chosen halflings to hide them in as they are 6 pts a piece and have BS4 bows with LD8. I think that is awesome but one thing that worries me is if people hit them magic missiles/normal missiles or perhaps a stone thrower. You see halflings are Toughness 2 and that is terrible. As Sean Zern once said to me "Killing halflings has got to be like squashing ripe pumpkins." I fear he is correct  and I know if I take at least one good round of shooting my bunker is screwed. I will need to leave said bunker to seek shelter somewhere else.

 

That is why I want to be able to leave units. Pumpkins don't always make the best body guards.

 

I've been trying to think through how to limit characters to moving between friendly units. Need to really brainstorm and test this with Nathan, as it's a tricky one for forums!

 

My/our goals are:

  1. Allow characters to be mobile with regard to friends
  2. Disallow characters from charging out solo at enemy units
  3. Disallow characters from being diverters (this is one I use heavily in both of my armies, and I really dislike the effect it has. I'd rather fix my army books so that I don't need to do this crap).
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God damnit Orkdork! you are fired! What kind of business do you think we are running here to allow that kind of slipshod work??

 

Oh, and you still didn't answer if this replaces the current miscast table or if it is in addition to.

Instead of! Can I have my job back? :)

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