WestRider Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 I've got a bunch of different ideas I'm kicking around for the Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament. Mostly in the same vein (run up fast and punch you in the face), but differing in details. Gonna lay out some lists later, but I want to write through some of my main options that I'm thinking about first, see if that helps me make up my mind much. - The big one is whether or not to rock a Lord of Skulls. He's expensive enough that he shapes the whole Army (it would probably basically be him, a JuggerLord, min Culties, and a ton of Khorne Dogs to screen with), and it's $160 and a ton of work on a Model that I likely wouldn't use much after the Tournament, but in an environment with almost no other LoW allowed, and in particular, no Knights, he could be pretty dominating. It's really the dollar and labour cost that's pushing me against it. - The next one is Spawn vs. Khorne Dogs. I'm taking at least one big pack of Dogs for sure, but I'm not sure which I want to go with for my JuggerLord's (and possibly JuggerHerald's) Unit. Point for Point, Spawn are more durable in most situations, and they've got greater potential damage output, but there are a few situations (most notably S10 with Ignores Cover or in CC) where they fold way faster, and Hounds have much more reliable output. I can also take Spawn as part of my SlaughterCult, while the Tournament List Restrictions pretty much preclude me taking a Gorepack for more Hounds outside of my CAD. That further biases the durability issue, since the Spawn will have FNP most of the Game because I usually take that as my bonus Blood Tithe choice for the SlaughterCult. I'm leaning toward Spawn here at the moment, both because of the durability advantage, and again because of the dollar and labour costs, since I've only got 16 Dogs, but I have 11 Spawn, and stuff lying around to make like a dozen more. - As hinted at above, I've also got some indecision as to if I want a Herald, and what I'm going to do with him. I'm probably taking a Blood Host, and my JuggerLord would come from that, but I then need an HQ for the CAD. I'm looking at four options right now. 1) A bare-bones Herald. Nice and cheap, he'd probably just hang out with some Culties and hide and keep them Fearless. 2) A JuggerHerald with the Locus of Wrath. I've felt in most of my Games that Hatred would be a really useful ability for DaemonKin to have more broadly available, but this is the only way it's reliably available. He'd go with some Spawn, so the Hatred mitigates their WS3 a bit, and maybe have the Chaos Lord in there, too. 3) A Blood Throne with the Locus of Wrath. The main temptation here is that it's the only way I can see to get Hatred to affect my MaulerFiends, which would be huge. But it's also pretty fragile, almost impossible to hide, and enough of a force multiplier that it's probably going to get targeted really quickly. 4) Another JuggerLord instead. I've got everything I'd need to build him, but I find the DK JuggerLord kind of underwhelming compared to what a cheaper CSM JuggerLord does with the Axe of Blind Fury, so it doesn't really appeal. My gut feeling is option 2, but option 1 also has a lot of appeal, on both Points and Dollar cost grounds, since I've already got a foot Herald, and that would mean more Spawn/Dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 As much fun as it is to run a LoS, it's probably just too much for one event. As for the others, I'm not as familiar, but I think option 2 is presented as the best option. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 I have a lord of skulls that I could let you barrow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 I have a lord of skulls that I could let you barrow. Well, that kind of changes the equation, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 dun dun DUUUUUUUN... Though now that I think about it, the orks, Necrons, and Eldar all have Super Heavies/Gargantuans while the Blood Angels and Grey Knights have pretty cool Lords of War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 Spawns are just blood points. They're so cheap and with weapon school three they're kind of unreliable and no safe. Rhino rush seems like a viable option with all the cheap blood points 185 for two meltas in rhino (1 combi) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 I have a lord of skulls that I could let you barrow. That definitely changes the equation. I'll let you know if I decide to take you up on that. @Mr. Bigglesworth: Getting the stuff to do Rhino Rush would actually cost me more than picking up a Lord of Skulls. Besides, the whole reason I ended up with this Army is that I like playing with the stuff that can move 12" on its own, the Beasts and Cavalry. Spawn are, as much as anything, ablative Wounds for the Characters on Juggers, so I'll probably end up keeping at least one Unit around. The extra durability matters there as much as anything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgosaurusrex Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 You should take the Lord of Skulls as you are the only codex that can. For some reason Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons aren't allowed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 You should take the Lord of Skulls as you are the only codex that can. For some reason Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons aren't allowed to. It is in Escalation for them and the codex for Daemonkin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 The uniqueness factor is definitely another mark in its favour. If it were a bit cheaper, it would be a shoe-in but as-is, it's still on the line. I need to get around to writing up some Lists, see what I can still do around that huge chunk of Points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 First draft on a LoS List - CAD Chaos Lord, Juggernaut, PowerFist, Axe of Khorne, 4++2x8 Culties15 Flesh Hounds5 Spawn 3 MaulerFiends Lord of Skulls I've got 6 Points left here, don't really know what to spend them on besides another Culty. Kind of feel like I should swap in 2x5 Dogs instead of the Spawn for this variant. Next idea: - CAD Chaos Lord, Juggernaut, Lightning Claw, Axe of Khorne, MB, 4++2x8 Culties 3x1 Spawn2 MaulerFiendsLord of Skulls - Gorepack 2x3 Bikers, 2xMeltagun3x5 Flesh Hounds I like this second version a bit better, but I think that's partly because I'm so used to playing Maelstrom, where this kind of Fast MSU can really be great. The individual Spawn here are to hide on Objectives and/or rush forward for Blood Points. Both of these leave me really fragile on Mission 3, with only Fast Attack being truly solid, and Elites being a freebie for my Opponent. Second one is also a boatload of KP in Mission 4. Without the Lord of Skulls, I'm looking at something like: - CAD Herald, Juggernaut, Locus of Wrath (Hatred)2x8 Culties14 Flesh HoundsHeldrake - Blood Host - - SlaughterCult Chaos Lord, Juggernaut, PowerFist, Axe of Khorne, 4++2x8 Bloodletters5 Possessed2x5 Spawn - - War Engines 3 MaulerFiends Soul Grinder I feel much more comfortable with this, since it's much more like what I've been running in the past. I've got 10 Points left here, and I can free up another 70 if I just have the Herald keeping some Culties in line. That would be enough for another 5 Dogs in the last FA slot or something. Could also swap the Soul Grinder out for another MaulerFiend or upgun it with the Points from the Herald. All I need to buy for this version is the Soul Grinder or maybe something I replace it with. I do need to get a Grinder into my collection, tho, so I'm kind of leaning that way. Still weak in Elites, but there's nothing there worth taking besides the mandatory Possessed. Man, you know the DK Elites options are bad when I'm wishing they could take Mutilators :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edosaurus Rex Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 A few things here: Take the Lord of Skulls. You beat me to the Khorne Daemonkin spot by a minute or two and I was definitely going to take one and it would be a shame to not see one at the event! You can borrow mine if you want, as long as you take good care of it (it's fully painted and ready to go). If you do take it, PLEASE pay the points for the skull cannon thing. The gatling gun is awful but the 10" blast is awesome, especially with the gnaw special rule. Also, that last army list that you posted (without the Lord of Skulls) would not be legal for the Ambassadorial Tournament. You are only allowed three detachments, and every formation in the Blood Host detachment counts as its own detachment per the rules of the event. You would be better off trying to fit those Maulerfiends into your CAD and maybe ditching the Soulgrinder (because fast stuff is more fun). Flesh Hounds are great. Take lots of them! I like units of eight (both for fluff and effectiveness). But it's not Maelstrom missions so you don't really need to do MSU. Don't leave any FOC slots empty, because you will have a very hard time with that one mission. I'm a little sad that you took the Khorne Daemonkin spot before I did, but I probably ended up with a better army list because of it so I'm not too butthurt. I look forward to collecting the skulls of the servants of Khorne! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Or....just buy three buckets of blood. Turn one throw it on the opponent and scream Khorne! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 ...or that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 A few things here: Take the Lord of Skulls. You beat me to the Khorne Daemonkin spot by a minute or two and I was definitely going to take one and it would be a shame to not see one at the event! You can borrow mine if you want, as long as you take good care of it (it's fully painted and ready to go). If you do take it, PLEASE pay the points for the skull cannon thing. The gatling gun is awful but the 10" blast is awesome, especially with the gnaw special rule. Also, that last army list that you posted (without the Lord of Skulls) would not be legal for the Ambassadorial Tournament. You are only allowed three detachments, and every formation in the Blood Host detachment counts as its own detachment per the rules of the event. You would be better off trying to fit those Maulerfiends into your CAD and maybe ditching the Soulgrinder (because fast stuff is more fun). Flesh Hounds are great. Take lots of them! I like units of eight (both for fluff and effectiveness). But it's not Maelstrom missions so you don't really need to do MSU. Don't leave any FOC slots empty, because you will have a very hard time with that one mission. I'm a little sad that you took the Khorne Daemonkin spot before I did, but I probably ended up with a better army list because of it so I'm not too butthurt. I look forward to collecting the skulls of the servants of Khorne! I'm really torn on the Lord of Skulls. It has all the style and awesome points, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like it leads to a list that I wouldn't play well. The War Engine Choices aren't Detachments. They're just single Unit options, same as if they were taken in a CAD or whatever. I thought they were Detachments at first, too, but on closer reading, it clearly differentiates between options in the Blood Host that are Formations, and options that are just Units. Not all the Combi-Detachments have choices like that, but the Blood Host and Decurion do. There's no way I'm taking DK Elites unless I'm getting something like the SlaughterCult bonus for them. I'll take the hit in Round three instead. The Elites options there are just terrible. Seriously, why no Mutilators? I could have at least dropped those in to help with the MSU saturation. Flesh Hounds are definitely among my faves. It was actually mostly due to wanting to run tons of them and all three of my MaulerFiends that led to me hacking together my first Unbound version of this list for OFCC last year, before the DK Dex even came out. One of my other ideas involves not bothering with the Blood Host at all, but taking like 60 Flesh Hounds between the CAD and a Gorepack. What Faction did you end up with? Honestly, all three of the Armies I put down would have come across pretty similar, it just would have been a matter of whether it was Flesh Hounds, Black Knights, or ThunderWolves that were rushing across the table at you :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Or....just buy three buckets of blood. Turn one throw it on the opponent and scream Khorne! Nope. Need four. It's a four round tournament. Actually, at that point, I should get 8, and throw two on each opponent ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgosaurusrex Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 I didn't fill out all my FOC choices for this event a couple years ago and I still kick myself for it. I would have won my 3rd game and gone on to the finals if I had some Fast Attack. I would highly recommend taking a minimum Elites unit. 5 Possessed wouldn't be a huge point sink. I still vote +1 for the Lord of Skulls. You are one of the few Codexes that can take a Superheavy to this event... Abuse that privilege. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 There's no way I can do both and get a decent Army. In the LoS Lists, I've only got a handful of actually capable Units besides the LoS itself, and sacrificing one of them for Possessed or even a Termicide Squad just feels like cutting out way too much from a List that I'm already not terribly comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Nope. Need four. It's a four round tournament. Actually, at that point, I should get 8, and throw two on each opponent ;) Dump one on your opponent and one on yourself beginning of each game. Khorne cares not from where the blood flows! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Instead, what about some blood colored liquor and do shots with your opponent at the beginning of each game? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I locked this in the other day: Combined Arms Detachment55 Herald58 8 Cultists58 8 Cultists170 Heldrake (BaleFlamer)130 MaulerFiend130 MaulerFiend130 MaulerFiendBlood Host (1 extra Blood Tithe per Turn)- SlaughterCult (Units benefit from an extra Blood Tithe effect less than the paid for effect)205 Chaos Lord (Juggernaut, Goredrinker, Axe of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption, Meltabombs)80 8 Bloodletters80 8 Bloodletters185 5 Possessed, Rhino160 5 Chaos Spawn- Gorepack (Flesh Hounds gain Hammer of Wrath. Bikers gain Shred on their Hammer of Wrath Hits)111 3 Chaos Bikers (2 Meltaguns, Champion with Combi-Melta & Meltabombs)111 3 Chaos Bikers (2 Meltaguns, Champion with Combi-Melta & Meltabombs)256 16 Flesh Hounds80 5 Flesh HoundsPoints: 1999 My only way to take down Flyers is to try to power up GoreDrinker and then turn my Chaos Lord into a Daemon Prince, but it's got a pretty good ground game, so I'm not too worried on that count. The bigger issue is in my play: I've mostly played Maelstrom for over a year now, and with DK, it's sometimes hard to remember that I need to save some stuff for end of game Scoring. I'm too used to being able to pick up a solid lead from my mobility and board control, so it doesn't matter much if my Army's falling apart by Turn 5-7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talonwinter Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Can't wait to see how you handle this. Also I always enjoy your painting it will be cool to ee what you've done with this. Looks like my army could give you fits depending on the mission. should be fun as i have a few thing on the ground for you to pick on. Any upgrades on the maulers.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I just go with the basic Magma Cutters on the Maulers. I do sort of feel like I should rip one set off and upgrade it to Lasher Tendrils, but I don't want to mess with the conversions I've got. Probably gonna end up making one or two more at some point anyhow, because they're some of my favorite Units, so those ones will get Lasher Tendrils. I suspect I'm going to end the day wishing I had some Soul Grinders, but it'll be what it'll be, and there will be lots of smashing regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 It's definitely got a lot of aggression in it, though as you say it's got some significant holes in what it can deal with. Axe of Khorne seems like a lot of points to spend when you're already buying Goredrinker- why not just run with a Power Sword to get the extra attack while swinging at Init? I also would've kept the Biker squads a little more trimmed-down (no Combi or MB), but those are both pretty minor things. Lasher Tendrils are better than Magma Cutters, but you do have to pay for them, and for that reason I often thing that Magma is the way you wanna go. However, when fighting against other walkers, MCs/GCs, etc, the Tendrils really can pay for themselves, so it's a tough choice. Soul Grinders are really good vehicles because of the ability to fill both shooting and melee roles for a reasonable price while being very tough to get rid of- it's a shame you don't have any. I'm not really sure about the Slaughtercult- its bonus is nice, but you're forced to take a lot of subpar units to enable it, which feels a bit weak. Those elements are a lot less aggressive than the Maulerfiends, Hounds, etc, which lets the enemy spread out their efforts more efficiently to knock out each portion of the force individually. Perhaps playing a more aggressive game (like Joel's list) or a more endurance-focused one using the Slaughtercult to maximize your Tithe effects and keep a steady stream of units while doing damage with Drakes/Grinders would've worked out better overall, I dunno. I guess we'll see when it comes to the actual tournament. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I tried a couple of Games with a Power Sword instead of the Axe of Khorne. Found a few situations where I wanted the at-Initiative AP2. Honestly, it was a pretty close choice, and that would have been a first port of call if I wanted to trim down farther. It was basically just that I was leaning Axe at the point when the list submission deadline hit. As is so often the case, a lot of this is driven by what I have on hand/could reasonably get done by the 10th. My ideal probably would have been some sort of double CAD+Gorepack arrangement, with at least one more Heldrake and probably a Grinder or two replacing the chaff from the SlaughterCult. If I had a BloodThirster available, I might also have gone for the suicide Biker Lord with the Axe Of Turning Into A BloodThirster as the second HQ instead of the Herald. Well, what I'd really like to run is just a Hellforged Hunting Pack, but that's not allowed in this format, and I need more stuff for it anyhow. Like you say, we'll see how it goes on the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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