Interesting clarification on AoS Summoning wording

[Threejacks]

I was taking the summoning rules literally in that I thought that models that were summoned to the game were counted as casualties,many thought this way but many also thought that they were only counted when killed.

 

Anyhow,found this thread at Dakka,a German player chimed in and stated that in the German wording its clear that they are counted as casualties when they are killed.

 

For me this is one of the many questions cleared up about the rules:)

 

 

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/657378.page

[dkieft]

I'll just chime in to say "Duh"

 

It was pretty obvious the intent even with the vaguely fuzzy wording.

 

"Models added to your army during the

game (for example, through summoning,

reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do

not count towards the number of models in

the army, but must be counted among the

casualties an army suffers."

 

Models in army is obviously your break point. Counted amongst casualties implies (losely) that when they die they count as casualties.

 

Counting as casualties when summoned makes no sense as you could lose by summoning too many models (without taking a single casualty).

[DisruptiveConduct]

The words obvious and intent do NOT go together.

 

What is obvious to you is difficult for others to see.

 

Try to keep an attitude that no viewpoint is a 'Duh'.

[Fixxer]

I'm with Derk though. I saw this debate when the rules first came out. Couldn't believe that people wanted to interpret it any different. It's very obvious that when summoned models are killed they count for your total casualties in the minor victory section. The percentage of models killed vs what you originally started with determines the minor victor. Summoning is a double edge, monsters are obviously the way you want to go, but are harder to summon. Its a fine mechanic, not perfect.

 

In 8th you didn't get [big bad swear word] for killing summoned models.

[indytims]

Just curious, though....

 

If you brought the figs for the unit with you... why not just start with them on the board, since there are no points costs/limitations?

 

And if you use some sort of second-hand points/costs limitations - how would summoning -not- break those limitations?

[Don't Panic]

Just curious, though....

 

If you brought the figs for the unit with you... why not just start with them on the board, since there are no points costs/limitations?

 

And if you use some sort of second-hand points/costs limitations - how would summoning -not- break those limitations?

probably to avoid sudden death? 

[DisruptiveConduct]

Cuz summoning stuff as part of the game is cool?

 

I dunno. Just saying.

[dkieft]

I think there are a couple things working for summoning.

 

First off like Mr Dont Panic said, by not taking all your stuff at once you avoid the enemy having the Sudden Death option. More so, you might get SD off your enemy's horde of whatevers.

 

Next, there is the element of surprise/reinforcement. Being able to add a unit into a combat that is starting to look grim is usually a boon.

 

There may be other good reasons but as I haven't seen it on the table it has not occurred to me.

[BeaverBeliever]

Let me preface this by saying that a) I hadn't thought of this interpretation, since my initial reading was the same as most people's, b) I didn't read the other forum's post, so this might be repetitive, and c) I don't really care too much either way, as I'm not too interested in these rules, but I do find this possibility intriguing:

 

"Models added to your army during the

game (for example, through summoning,

reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do

not count towards the number of models in

the army, but must be counted among the

casualties an army suffers."

 

Models in army is obviously your break point. Counted amongst casualties implies (losely) that when they die they count as casualties.

 

Counting as casualties when summoned makes no sense as you could lose by summoning too many models (without taking a single casualty).

 

 

Automatically counting them as casualties, even if they aren't actually removed from the table, could provide a good balancing mechanic for the gross over-summoning that someone could perform in a game (or a turn).  You'd have to weigh more carefully whether what you're summoning is going to kill more than it automatically gives up to the opponent.  It also doesn't automatically cause you to lose, since you only auto lose when you get totally wiped out or due to a sudden death condition.  I don't know, seems somewhat intriguing to me to balance things out.

[dkieft]

Automatically counting them as casualties, even if they aren't actually removed from the table, could provide a good balancing mechanic for the gross over-summoning that someone could perform in a game (or a turn).  You'd have to weigh more carefully whether what you're summoning is going to kill more than it automatically gives up to the opponent.  It also doesn't automatically cause you to lose, since you only auto lose when you get totally wiped out or due to a sudden death condition.  I don't know, seems somewhat intriguing to me to balance things out.

If I start the game with say 10 Necromancers on the table, with the intent to summon everything else, then say I summon 10 models in game. Well now I have 100% losses. This makes no sense.

 

Now, without counting them as casualties (immediately), I could summon 100 models, and as long as 10 models total aren't killed during the game I have a chance.

 

This example is pretty extreme, but it does highlight the difference in interpretation. The difference of 10 dead guys in this example is not that much, but it also shows us that if you summon tons of stuff over the game, then you better have a good sized base army to start with or you will be at 100% casualties fairly fast.

 

Also, I think talk of balancing the summon rules is a bit silly as if you have X number of models on hand to summon, you equally can start with them on the board since there is no limit either way. So really summoning does not give you extra units, it just gives you "reserve units" (that do not count towards your numbers) and the ability to bring back units that have been wiped out. So holding things in reserve to summon is actually a detriment as you have that many less models to lose.

[BeaverBeliever]

If I start the game with say 10 Necromancers on the table, with the intent to summon everything else, then say I summon 10 models in game. Well now I have 100% losses. This makes no sense.

 

Now, without counting them as casualties (immediately), I could summon 100 models, and as long as 10 models total aren't killed during the game I have a chance.

 

This example is pretty extreme, but it does highlight the difference in interpretation. The difference of 10 dead guys in this example is not that much, but it also shows us that if you summon tons of stuff over the game, then you better have a good sized base army to start with or you will be at 100% casualties fairly fast.

 

Also, I think talk of balancing the summon rules is a bit silly as if you have X number of models on hand to summon, you equally can start with them on the board since there is no limit either way. So really summoning does not give you extra units, it just gives you "reserve units" (that do not count towards your numbers) and the ability to bring back units that have been wiped out. So holding things in reserve to summon is actually a detriment as you have that many less models to lose.

 

100% casualties (or any % casualties) only matters if it comes to the minor victory condition.  In your second case, you'd be at 1000% casualties if you summon 100 models, but as long as you wipe your opponent off the board, that doesn't matter, you'd have a major victory regardless; you're betting heavy to win heavy, which can have its appeal.  You could also score a sudden death victory with 1000% casualties.  Under this reading of the rules, the %'s are more just a bookkeeping/scoring number than having a basis in reality.

 

And for your last point, it would matter for triggering sudden death, as DP and others have stated.  If either you keep models off the board to try and choose a sudden death condition or keep them off to prevent your opponent from choosing one, that makes a difference for %'s if it comes to the minor victory condition.  It would force you to weigh whether you think a sudden victory is going to be more likely than a minor one, given the current number of models on the board.  Again, possibly betting heavy to win heavy.

 

But alas, it doesn't really matter since the German translation seems to clear things up.  Just an interesting thought experiment, IMO.

[dkieft]

100% casualties (or any % casualties) only matters if it comes to the minor victory condition.  In your second case, you'd be at 1000% casualties if you summon 100 models, but as long as you wipe your opponent off the board, that doesn't matter, you'd have a major victory regardless; you're betting heavy to win heavy, which can have its appeal.  You could also score a sudden death victory with 1000% casualties.  Under this reading of the rules, the %'s are more just a bookkeeping/scoring number than having a basis in reality.

 

And for your last point, it would matter for triggering sudden death, as DP and others have stated.  If either you keep models off the board to try and choose a sudden death condition or keep them off to prevent your opponent from choosing one, that makes a difference for %'s if it comes to the minor victory condition.  It would force you to weigh whether you think a sudden victory is going to be more likely than a minor one, given the current number of models on the board.  Again, possibly betting heavy to win heavy.

 

But alas, it doesn't really matter since the German translation seems to clear things up.  Just an interesting thought experiment, IMO.

Fair points sir!