Concussive melee weapons and resolved combat?

[Guest]

Example, daemon prince charges imperial guard blob, kills 5, takes an unsaved power maul wound (Concussive), and wins combat (sweeps them off the table). In my turn, I assault the consolidated prince with allied GK terminators. Is the Daemon Prince still at initiative 1 due to the power maul unsaved wound from that other combat? It is the "following assault phase," but this is a totally different combat.

 

I think BRB is pretty clear, but I've never played it like that, so I'm double checking. Never really occured to me that I'd need to keep track of concussive hits in melee after a combat was resolved.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Following assualt phase is just the next assualt phase. So yes if that is how it is worded it would be next assault phase whether it is with new opponents or old

[Guest]

Following assualt phase is just the next assualt phase. So yes if that is how it is worded it would be next assault phase whether it is with new opponents or old

It is, I've just never used it as such.

 

I've just always thought of concussive being until the following assault phase of the same combat, with the effect disappearing if the model leaves the combat.

 

From a practicality standpoint, it means I need to keep track of which models are at reduced initiative, as concussive is resolved by models, not by units.

[WestRider]

Next Assault Phase, regardless of whether it's the same Combat or not. Remember, Concussive exists on shooting weapons, too, which obviously couldn't affect the same Combat, since they only apply outside of CC entirely.

[Guest]

Next Assault Phase, regardless of whether it's the same Combat or not. Remember, Concussive exists on shooting weapons, too, which obviously couldn't affect the same Combat, since they only apply outside of CC entirely.

Was unclear on this point. If the shooting weapon concusses, does it last until the end of the assault phase of the turn the weapon was shot, or the following turn's assault phase?

 

EDIT: To clarify, I've been playing it that the shooting applies for the assault phase after the shooting takes place, but no longer. This means that keeping track of concussed models really only matters for my turn, so it isn't a big deal.

[WestRider]

Until the end of the next Assault Phase, whenever that may be. So if you hit someone with a Concussive Attack in the Shooting Phase and then Charge them, it'll only apply for that Turn's Assault Phase, since that's the next one. But if you hit them with a Concussive Attack during Overwatch, it'll apply during that Assault Phase and the next, because it's not phrased "until the end of the current Assault Phase".

[Guest]

Until the end of the next Assault Phase, whenever that may be. So if you hit someone with a Concussive Attack in the Shooting Phase and then Charge them, it'll only apply for that Turn's Assault Phase, since that's the next one. But if you hit them with a Concussive Attack during Overwatch, it'll apply during that Assault Phase and the next, because it's not phrased "until the end of the current Assault Phase".

Wow, didn't even think of overwatch. Interceptor too.

[Guest]

Gotta admit, Concussive makes grav pistols really appealing.

[WestRider]

In my experience, it very rarely comes into play. Certainly not often enough to shell out for Grav Pistols.

[Guest]

In my experience, it very rarely comes into play. Certainly not often enough to shell out for Grav Pistols.

I'll agree there. I mean, for the grav pistols to be viable, you'd need enemies which can be wounding, but not slain, by grav weapons. The attack has less value against multi-model units, and has no effect against vehicles. Concussive is also meaningless against unwieldy weapon units (like hammerators)

 

That said, I have found the plasma pistols to be very viable on squad sergeants. It's a non-"once per game" combi-melta against most targets. Scout marines in particular, really benefit from plasma pistols. That said, they are very iffy on veteran sergeants, as the get's hot is a major loss for the unit.

 

Against most MEQ targets, the grav pistol is almost as good as a plasma pistol. Concussive has a solid appeal prior to the charge against a wraith knight or other MC, especially if your squad lead is likely to get locked in a challenge so he can used his power fist/axe. Plus concussive means they can't hit-and-run nearly as often.

[Xavier319]

Grav pistols are really over-costed, until you charge that wraith knight with your Smash$&%#er, and he's striking at Init 1. super niche, but still.

[WestRider]

Yep. It's not that it's never useful, it's just that the cost vs. the percentage of games where it's going to be useful is really bad. I'm happy to have it when I'm taking Thunder Hammers or Power Mauls or other Grav Weapons or whatever for their other properties, but I wouldn't take something specifically for Concussive.

[Guest]

Yep. It's not that it's never useful, it's just that the cost vs. the percentage of games where it's going to be useful is really bad. I'm happy to have it when I'm taking Thunder Hammers or Power Mauls or other Grav Weapons or whatever for their other properties, but I wouldn't take something specifically for Concussive.

I think it would depend on your list.

 

I do know that in 7th, the way the current challenge rules work, my power fist tactical sarge will never get to swing if charged and challenged by a daemon prince. I can either refuse the challenge, not swing and die to wounds overlapping from my squad, or I can accept and die to the enemy I:8 smash swings against my character, then watch the excess wounds overlap to my squad. Now, if I could concuss the daemon prince prior to the charge, I would actually get to swing (with the fist and with the squad's krak grenades).

 

Mind you, it would also increase cost of an already pricey tactical sergeant to a much more pricey build....

[AbusePuppy]

That's all entirely true, pax, but the situation you present should be a pretty rare one because A, Tactical sergeants shouldn't have Power Fists; B, Daemon Princes shouldn't be on the ground trying to assault things; and C, you still need to successfully push a wound through on them (which typically means bypassing a 2+ Jink save.)

 

So yeah, when it works? Concussive is a really nice rule. But it just doesn't come up very often.

[WestRider]

^^^

 

Exactly. Now, on the other hand, if I've got Grav Guns on my Bikers, which are already good even discounting Concussive, and I managed to Ground the thing somehow, I'll take advantage of that to unload on the DP before Charging with my Chapter Smasher. But I'm not going to specifically shell out for an overpriced Grav Pistol for the one Game in 50 or so when it's actually worth the price.

[Guest]

That's all entirely true, pax, but the situation you present should be a pretty rare one because A, Tactical sergeants shouldn't have Power Fists; B, Daemon Princes shouldn't be on the ground trying to assault things; and C, you still need to successfully push a wound through on them (which typically means bypassing a 2+ Jink save.)

 

So yeah, when it works? Concussive is a really nice rule. But it just doesn't come up very often.

I only mentioned it because of experience with this exact situation. I had a 10-man tactical squad. We assaulted a prince on the ground because it had won combat previously and consolidated there. We then proceded to take 6 losses without getting to swing the fist at all (4 kraks survived), and then we lost the other 4 on the following turn.

 

This would be a game were I used 5th ed tactics, which the "hidden fist" was quite viable for this exact situation.

 

As for 2+ jink, only nurgle princes normally have this. A khorne prince, in example, will only have a 4+ jink, which is still a good save. Honestly, with the grav pistol, the bigger threat is if they didn't buy an armor save for their prince...