Grey Knights and Space Marines - Doug's 1850 List

[Doug]

Here's what I've been playing recently. I've only put in a few games so far against Necrons and before that I hadn't played since 4th edition but so far I like the way the army works. I especially like Maelstrom mode as the tactical cards really get that extra incentive to keep your units moving between objectives. First, some pictures!

 

Here's two new new knights.

 

Here's two old knights. They have a bright red base unlike the two above. Which one do you prefer or are they pretty much the same?

 

Here's some quick terrain I did last weekend.

 

Total points - 1850

 

Grey Knights Nemesis Strike Force

 

Librarian, Cuirass of Fortune

x5 Terminators, psycannon, hammer

x5 Terminators, incinerator, hammer

Dreadknight, teleporter, heavy psycannon

Stormraven, extra armour, TL assault cannon and TL multimelta

 

Space Marines Demi-company (Iron Hands)

 

Chaplain, melta bombs

x5 Tactical marines, melta bombs, melta-gun, drop pod

x5 Tactical marines, flamer, rhino

x5 Tactical marines, flamer, rhino

x3 Centurion Devastators, grav-cannons, drop pod with locator beacon

x1 Dreadnought, multi-melta, heavy flamer, drop pod with locator beacon

x1 Landspeeder, multi-melta, assault cannon

 

1. The storm raven is in there for anti-air mostly. I couldn't figure out another way to get anti-air in there other than dubiously worthwhile devastators with flak missiles so he's kind of an expensive tax unfortunately. If he's still alive late game I can ferry units around which could be nice. The TL assault cannon is chosen because it's better than the TL lascannon for all armour types as long as I can get him within 24" which seems pretty likely.

 

2. The marines are using Iron Hands but frankly it doesn't really matter. The Chapter Tactics aren't a big help in this one.

 

3. I suspect the CAD may be a better use than the Demi-company. To make this fit there's very little in the way of upgrades. I'd love extra armour on the dreadnought, another level on the librarian, another weapon on the dreadknight etc. Plus, I'd much prefer to swap the chaplain for a second librarian but I suspect getting Objective Secured on everything is a better trade-off.

 

4. The librarian doesn't have the Libre because it forces him into Daemonology (otherwise he loses the basic spell) and I prefer to use Divination or Telepathy.

 

5. I think the two marine squads in rhinos may be better served by using drop pods but I don't have the models yet...

 

6. In general, the strategy has been to drop in and shoot at 24" with the occasional assault. It's been working so far against Necrons. I did try one game using more of a long range army with predators and devastators with lascannons but it went poorly. Lascannons are awful weapons... I much prefer meltas and assault/psycannons.

 

Any thoughts on this? In particular, I'd like to know if the group preference is demi-company or CAD for this application.

 

 

[K_DUB]

How are you getting a drop pod on your Centurions? It cant be taken by them and all your other SM units took transports. If you go by CAD then yes you can take a DP as a fast attack. If you are using Iron Hands take the CAD. If you are using say Ultramarines use the DC. 

[WestRider]

Yeah, you need a CAD to get a Pod for Centurions. Their only DT options are Land Raiders.

 

On the painting, I like the new ones better, but I'm not sure if that's just the red, or the fact that there's more gold mixed in and contrasting with it.

 

Assault Cannon/Multi-Melta is definitely a good default setup for a Storm Raven. There are uses for other builds, but most of the time, that one will do good work for you.

[generalripphook]

I love your quick terrain and your knights are painted amazing!

[AbusePuppy]

1. The storm raven is in there for anti-air mostly. I couldn't figure out another way to get anti-air in there other than dubiously worthwhile devastators with flak missiles so he's kind of an expensive tax unfortunately. If he's still alive late game I can ferry units around which could be nice. The TL assault cannon is chosen because it's better than the TL lascannon for all armour types as long as I can get him within 24" which seems pretty likely.

 

If you want AA, taking the Anti-Air Defense Force formation is actually a lot better. It's pretty much the same price (220pts versus your 215) and has a lot stronger firepower for shooting down flyers (a minimum of six TL S7 shots rather than four S6 ones, with the Hunter being roughly equivalent to a Multimelta.) It's not as good for other applications, but it's able to score and plays nicely with many of your other selections. The Stormraven, admittedly, can carry the Centurions in it, but that's a lot of eggs in one basket.

 

Also, even if you keep the SR, drop the Extra Armor. It just doesn't come up all that often.

 

 

2. The marines are using Iron Hands but frankly it doesn't really matter. The Chapter Tactics aren't a big help in this one.

 

IH is a solid, if not always exciting, choice. White Scars is another good default, since they let you slip out of combat and open up Khan as an HQ option.

 

 

3. I suspect the CAD may be a better use than the Demi-company. To make this fit there's very little in the way of upgrades. I'd love extra armour on the dreadnought, another level on the librarian, another weapon on the dreadknight etc. Plus, I'd much prefer to swap the chaplain for a second librarian but I suspect getting Objective Secured on everything is a better trade-off.

 

The Demi-Company is a solid formation, but the question is if you're really making full use of it. The GK portion of your list is fairly aggressive, as GK tend to be, and the SM part doesn't really support that. If you were running Drop Pods or Khan, perhaps, but as it stands you're playing a weird split game that will often leave your expensive  GK guys sitting right in front of all of the enemy's firepower.

 

 

Any thoughts on this? In particular, I'd like to know if the group preference is demi-company or CAD for this application.

 

A Demi-Company is better than a CAD if you're just sticking with the units you have in it- but a CAD lets you cherry-pick the best stuff from the book and make exclusive use of it. Also, as mentioned, your current list is illegal because Centurions cannot select a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport. I might advise you to do something more like this:

 

NEMESIS STRIKE FORCE

1 Librarian (ML3, Force Staff)

5 Terminators (Psycannon, Daemonhammer)

5 Terminators (Incinerator, Daemonhammer)

1 Dreadknight (Greatsword, Psycannon, Incinerator)

IRON HANDS/ULTRAMARINES COMBINED ARMS

1 Librarian (ML2, Auspex, Force Axe)

5 Tactical Marines (Meltagun, Drop Pod)

5 Tactical Marines (Flamer, Drop Pod)

5 Tactical Marines (Flamer, Drop Pod)

1 Attack Bike (Multimelta)

1 Attack Bike (Multimelta)

1 Drop Pod

3 Centurion Devastators (Grav, Omniscope)

INQUISITORIAL DETACHMENT

1 Inquisitor (Terminator, Psycannon, 3 Servo-Skulls)

ANTI-AIR DEFENSE FORCE

2 Stalkers

1 Hunter

 

So, as you can see, a few changes. The Dreadnought and Land Speeder, while not horrible, were a bit out of keeping with the rest of your stuff, so they got trimmed down along with the Stormraven; if you really like the models for any of them and want to keep them in the list, they can potentially sub for other things (though the Dread is the hardest to fit in.) A Librarian with Auspex takes over for Chappy, who sadly didn't really have a good job in your list, and gives you something to pair with the Centurions. We gave both Librarians the ML upgrade so you can get more of the spells you want off (Div and Telepathy are great disciplines, so keep on with those) and an Auspex so that your big guns can hammer something even if it tries to hide in cover. I would normally give the Librarian Cuirass of Sacrifice, but that was the easiest place to trim 15pts so it got cut- however, there are other things you could drop instead.

 

Multimelta Attack Bikes replace the Land Speeder as your dedicated tank hunters- they have similar or more firepower against most targets and are significantly tougher to boot (especially if you go White Scars instead.) The list has a lot of Kill Points in it, so feel free to combine them into a single squad if you prefer. The Defense Force takes over for the Stormraven on AA duties, though it's arguably a bit overkill against most armies- however, if you face down Flyrants or AV12 airplanes, you'll be glad you have them. The Inquisitor and his Servo-Skulls fill the role of Locator Beacons, but do it starting turn 1 and for a smaller cost with some firepower tacked on. If you want to spread your investment around, consider dropping the ML upgrade from one of the other two to give him the Psyker upgrade. Don't forget he carries a Daemonhammer!

 

I tweaked a few other small things, like giving the Dreadknight the full weapon loadout- Torrent flamers are brutal. I didn't, however, swap out the template weapons on the Termies/Tacticals, eve though I normally would suggest Psycannons and Meltaguns respectively on those squads; I assumed you had them modeled that way already and, insomuch as possible, I wanted to leave your existent pieces useable. The army has four Drop Pods, which is an awkward number, but I'm assuming that is what you are working towards- you could easily trade the Pods in this version for one or more Rhinos for the time being and it would work reasonably similar.

[Doug]

Hey that's a really interesting list. It's very different from what I would normally put on the table so I'm interested in giving it a try. Where do I find rules for the inquisitor? I'm also not really enthusiastic about buying 3 vehicles solely for AA but I was thinking of buying a stormtalon because it looks cool. Is that thing any good or are the 2HP a downer? With the points saved from that and maybe dropping one attack bike, I could fit in the dreadnought again! I love dreadnoughts...

[AbusePuppy]

The Stormtalon is also a very solid little airplane- I considered them for the list, but in a pure AA sense they aren't as good as other options and you seemed worried about that. Give 1-2 Stormtalons a try and I think you will be pleasantly surprised; Skyhammer Missiles are the preferred weapon option. (Also, if you want to try the Defense Force without spending a fortune, they're based on the Rhino chassis so it wouldn't be that hard to convert some turrets to stick on top of your existing tanks.)

 

If you want to run a Dreadnought, the setup you had (MM+HF) is about the best you can do, short of bringing in Forge World units like the Siege Dreadnought.

 

Inquisitors can be found in the Inquisition book, which is only available digitally right now. If you happen to have a copy of the old 5th Edition GK codex, however, they are still identical to the rules presented there (with the exception of their psychic powers, of course.)

[Doug_L]

I went on a buying spree this weekend to update my 4th edition army. I'm not going to complain about the prices - I think that's overdone - but Warhammer is not even close to my most expensive hobby and I was still more than a little surprised... I got the following:

 

- 4 drop pods and a bunch of scouts off ebay. The pods I needed, the scouts were just fairly cheap.

- Centurion devastators. $90 kit but it has lots of bits so I only grimaced a little.

- Storm talon. $50 kit and it has lots of bits and looks cool. This one was a pretty good deal.

 

I considered buying the hunter/stalker but it was also a $90 kit and even worse, you only get one of the models, not parts for both!! Therefore, I'm thinking the AA formation probably isn't going to happen. I was looking at the gun only on ebay and it looks like a difficult fit (much wider than the razorback gun) to the normal rhino body so I'm not sure how to make it work. Instead, I may get another stormtalon because it's a really, really cool model. I don't think I can even look at the landspeeders any more. Those are 90s moulds and are totally outclassed by the new hotness.

 

I also read the rules for the inquisitors and wow are those servo skulls good! I agree that they will mesh really well with a drop pod army.

 

That means I may drop the AA formation and the two MM bikes from your recommended list above and replace them with 2x stormtalons and put the dreadnought with pod back in. I think that will just about be an even swap on points.

 

However, I did also buy a ton of scouts for the hell of it. Are they a good fit with this sort of list (snipers) or are having the extra power armour bodies in the pods preferred?

[AbusePuppy]

You do actually get enough parts in the Hunter/Stalker kit to build it such that you can swap between them, for what that's worth. However, the Stormtalon is probably a better buy for you (in several respects) so I'd go with that instead. Getting a second Stormtalon would also open up the option of running the formation using 2x of them plus a Stormraven (which presumably you already have.)

 

Servo-Skulls are super-cheap and excellent utility. Actually, that's a pretty good description of the Inquisition in general.

 

You could potentially run 1x Tactical squad in a Drop Pod (in order to get that magical three Pods total) and then two units of Scouts- I would suggest Snipers so that you have some backfield camping units, but Bolter or CCW could be defendable. Scouts are quite good nowadays, and while they're not a "perfect" fit for your army they work well enough to fit the bill- I wouldn't have recommended going out of your way to buy them for it, but since you already have them they're a perfectly functional choice. Give 'em a try and see what you think of them- at 11pts a pop I'm usually quite happy with mine.

[Doug_L]

My list will have 2 stormtalons because the model is very cool. Here's my most recent one - affectionately named Miss Behavin.

 

Here's my next two grey knights - one with incinerator that I will likely not use and one with hammer. Their golds are a bit light because I ran out of tin bitz. The next few will be darker.

 

Here's another pictures of one of the older ones showing the darker red just for reference. It's not my favourite and I will stick with the lighter red in future.

 

I have a game tonight against necrons and will be using this list at 1850pts exactly:

 

Inquisitor with Terminator armor, Hammer, Psycannon, 3 servo skulls

GK Librarian with Level 2, Force Staff, Curiass of Sacrifice

2x Terminator squads of 5 each with Psycannon and Hammer

1x Nemesis Dreadknight with heavy Psycannon, heavy Incinerator

 

SM Librarian with Level 2, Auspex, Force Axe

Centurion Devastators squad of 3 with grav-cannons and grav-amps

1x Scouts with camo and sniper rifles

1x Scouts with bolters, teleport beacon

2x Dreadnoughts with Multi-melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod (one pod with locator beacon)

1x Drop pod (for devastators)

2x Stormtalons with TL assault cannons, Missiles

 

I haven't used a fully drop pod army before so I'm excited to give it a go, especially the devastors which I've also never used before. I'm fully expecting to thoroughly melt at least one immortal squad. The mission will probably be maelstrom so that may be a pain. The stormtalons may be used for some last minute hovering to grab objectives. He often has at least one flyer so they will be busy regardless.

 

The marines are using Iron Hands rules for durability. I'm a bit concerned about the librarian being squishy but points are very tight. Likewise I would've wished to upgrade Psyker levels but couldn't find the room. In future, the scouts will likely all use sniper rifles (dropping the locator beacons for points) but I don't have the models yet.

[AbusePuppy]

I'm not a fan of Camo Cloaks on the Scouts (I find that I just Go to Ground with them anytime they're shot anyways and the unit is disposable-enough that I don't care so much about losses), but aside from that it looks like a very solid list. You have enough units in reserve that taking a Comms Relay (via Aegis Line/Imperial Bunker) could be useful, though doing so would necessitate dropping something else.

[Doug_L]

Where do I find rules for the Comms Relay?

 

The list I played against was roughly:

 

Judicator Battallion formation (2x praetorians, 1x stalker)

Annihilation Nexus formation (2x barges, 1x ark)

Cannoptek Harvest formation (spyder, 8 wraiths, scarabs)

Destroyer cult formation (Lord and 7-8 destroyers)

Unit of 10 deathmarks (I don't know how he got these in here, I assume unbound?)

 

I'm used to the warriors and monoliths style armies so there was a lot of new stuff here I haven't faced before. Unfortunately, it all moved 12" minimum and seemed designed to kill terminator armour so the going was a little rough...

 

We played maelstrom and my overall strategy was to pod in one corner of the board to try to concentrate fire against a portion of his army first. I hadn't quite realized how fast his necrons could move so success was mixed. A few notable highlights:

 

- My dreadknight didn't last long. I suspect he brought the deathmarks for a very specific reason...

- The devastors and librarian pulped one squad of praetorians then got wiped by a strength 10 blast from the ark on Turn 2. I was a little dismayed at this point in the game.

- However, the grey knights and an unhealthy run of sixes were saviors of the game. One squad chose not to show up until turn 4. The other squad wiped out the stalker, the deathmarks and even all 8 wraiths in close combat (force + hammer hand turned out useful). We called the game in my favour at this point (bottom of turn 4) but I suspect if we played another round they would've bagged the destroyer lord and his unit as well.

- Continuing my disgusting luck, the stormtalons rended with every second assault cannon round and destroyed three vehicles and the spyder.

 

A few other general thoughts:

- The servo-skulls were not great and were too easily removed. I positioned them 24" away from his guys but on the first turn his wraiths moved 12" then ran 2D6 and the praetorians moved 12" with a D6 run and jetpack 2D6 on top of that. They were scary fast. Fortunately, I had the lone scout unit with beacon to bring in the terminators. The beacon was so handy as a back-up plan I may keep them as is rather than upgrading to sniper rifles.

 

- The dreadnoughts were fairly invisible and one was easily glanced to death. However, it's useful having the second guy coming in reserve and he picked up a well-timed victory point. I may consider giving the second guy a long range weapon (plasma cannon or maybe just trusty assault cannon) if his utility is going to be more victory point taking rather than shooting at tanks from behind.

 

- I'm going to keep trying psyker heavy lists but it never works out as well in reality as I think it will. With 2 level 2s and a few level 1s (the units) I usually have 9-10 dice. With those dice, I will attempt 3 spells which I will probably get 2. One of those will likely be denied (usually the one I prefer) leaving me with just one, my second choice spell. If I were to face an army with any level of psykic defense, my odds go down further. That said, force and hammerhand (plus lots of luck) won me this game so I won't complain too much. I just think another dreadknight would be a better use of the nearly 300 points I have in psykers.

 

- I agree that maybe the camo-cloaks can be dropped. I certainly did go to ground with the scouts as soon as they were shot at and in that case, the 3+ cover save is probably "good enough." That's my only source of free points to shave off in the list if I think of something else to buy.

 

- I wish I had formations like the necron codex... There's no useful space marine formations for the units I want to use...

[WestRider]

Single Units of DeathMarks can be taken as Auxiliary Choices in the Decurion, but that requires a Reclamation Legion, which he doesn't seem to have had. I also don't know how his Wraiths were running 2d6". They've got Fleet, so they can re-roll, but that's it.

[AbusePuppy]

Where do I find rules for the Comms Relay?

 

Rules for the Comms Relay are in both Stronghold Assault and the 6th Edition WH40K rulebook. Stronghold also has rules for the Imperial Bunker and other fortifications that can take the Comms as an upgrade, while the 6E book has only the Aegis Line and Bastion that can take it.

 

 

A few other general thoughts:

- The servo-skulls were not great and were too easily removed. I positioned them 24" away from his guys but on the first turn his wraiths moved 12" then ran 2D6 and the praetorians moved 12" with a D6 run and jetpack 2D6 on top of that. They were scary fast. Fortunately, I had the lone scout unit with beacon to bring in the terminators. The beacon was so handy as a back-up plan I may keep them as is rather than upgrading to sniper rifles.

 

He was either unfamiliar with his own rules or intentionally cheating here, I can't really say which. Wraiths only run d6" just like every other unit and Praetorians are Jump Pack Infantry, not Jet Packs- that means they move 12" during movement, but do not get a special assault move.

 

The Beacons really are there as a backup plan, and I think you can see now why they have some value. (It's arguable exactly how many you want, but their usefulness is undeniable.) The trick with Servo-skulls is to stagger their placement such that the enemy can't easily pop them all as well as understand what the other player wants to be doing turn 1. Are they going to move towards you? Place the Skulls more conservatively. Are they gonna try and move away and avoid you? Place the Skulls more cockily. They're very useful tools at 3pts each.

 

 

- The dreadnoughts were fairly invisible and one was easily glanced to death. However, it's useful having the second guy coming in reserve and he picked up a well-timed victory point. I may consider giving the second guy a long range weapon (plasma cannon or maybe just trusty assault cannon) if his utility is going to be more victory point taking rather than shooting at tanks from behind.

 

Most of the longer-ranged weapons are a bit unimpressive for a Dreadnought overall; note that an Assault Cannon doesn't actually get you any range over a Multimelta at all. Also, if you're looking to use your second wave just as an objective-scorer, you can do much better than Dreadnoughts for that role.

 

 

- I'm going to keep trying psyker heavy lists but it never works out as well in reality as I think it will. With 2 level 2s and a few level 1s (the units) I usually have 9-10 dice. With those dice, I will attempt 3 spells which I will probably get 2. One of those will likely be denied (usually the one I prefer) leaving me with just one, my second choice spell. If I were to face an army with any level of psykic defense, my odds go down further. That said, force and hammerhand (plus lots of luck) won me this game so I won't complain too much. I just think another dreadknight would be a better use of the nearly 300 points I have in psykers.

 

Psykers can be very powerful tools, but they are also very unreliable and if you're not rolling on the right disciplines, they aren't going to pull their weight. Knowing what powers to prioritize, how many dice to use on them, and what disciplines to focus on are all very important (and often very difficult) decisions. Against the list you described, for example, it would be important to remember that they have only very limited access to shooting that can penetrate your armor and you have some excellent "Clown" units in close combat. The Necrons also have very high Leadership values as well as Reanimation Protocols, and combined this makes Telepathy- normally an excellent choice- much more lackluster; I would likely roll for Divination to take advantage of Prescience, Forewarning, Foreboding, Perfect Timing, and Misfortune.

 

Psykers always run hot and cold- that's just the nature of the beast. If you don't like that, you may want to shunt some of those points invested into them into some other options instead.

[Doug_L]

You're right, I read through the necron codex and he was playing a few rules wrong for the movement and unit types. No big deal, I get them wrong too as I've only got a few 7th games so far!

 

I still really like the concept of psykers - and I dislike the concept of close combat characters - so I will keep them in. However, after a bit of thought I may drop the camo-cloaks and the heavy flamer on one dreadnought to free up points for another psyker level. That could either bump up the GK to level 3 or give a level 1 to the inquisitor.

 

I've also found a new games shop in the nearby town (Edmonton) so I will try to find a few new opponents this weekend. Hopefully I can play against something other than necrons for once...

[AbusePuppy]

Fair enough, it's hardly uncommon to get rules wrong on either or both sides of a battle, I'm just a bit of a stickler for that sort of thing. So long as neither of you are pissed about it, it's not a big deal. :P

 

Extra Mastery Levels definitely do a lot to help psykers, since that means more dice to start with and more shots at the powers you want. If you're looking for cheap ways to sneak some more Warp Charge into the army, remember than the Psyker in an Inquisitorial Henchmen squad is only 10pts and can roll on any of the normal disciplines (except Maelific.) That means you can get a scoring unit that generates a Warp Charge every turn for only 18pts, which is a pretty good deal- and for a few points more you can give them some decent guns to play with, should you please.

 

More variety of opponents is always nice, so fingers crossed on the store.

[Prophecy]

How would you stylize a henchman squad these days for something other than a heavy weapons squad of servitors?

[AbusePuppy]

The basic squad would be one Psyker plus two Warrior Acolytes (sans gear), which is 18pts. That's your bare-minimum scoring unit plus warp charge. If you've got a few more points laying around, add three more Acolytes (or two more and one Death Cult Assassin) and give them Storm Bolters- now you've got some decent shooting at a distance. Alternately, you could sink some points to give them Meltaguns or Plasmaguns to give the squad a little more "oomph," although you definitely want some expendable bodies to stand in front if you're doing this. A Mystic could also have some use in your list, as they serve as a Locator Beacon for the squad.

[Doug_L]

This weekend's game was against an 1850pt Harlequin eldar army. I'm not very familiar with that book so roughly his army was:

 

- Jetbike Seer council with roughly 10 farseers/warlocks

- 3x units of harlequin close combat troops, each with a character of some sort in an open-topped fast transport

- 2x units of close combat tooled jetbike troops

- Crimson Death Formation

 

The mission was Relic on Eternal War and the marines won. Some highlights were:

 

- As usual, I wanted to go second to try to stretch out his army a bit. It makes it a bit easier to drop down and try to pick apart sections after he's moved the faster elements away. It worked very well here to isolate the seer council. My devastators and one unit of grey knights came down and killed that entire squad in the first turn. So far I've been very pleased with my army's shooting at short range. It's a lot of fun to be able to feel like you can easily control 24" blobs around the drop sites.

 

- Despite a huge uphill battle for the eldar losing their seer council, the Crimson death formation very nearly turned it around by themselves. My storm talons were outmatched and having a low model count army was not healthy when facing that many lances. My main take away here was that aliens get all the good formations.   

 

- The dreadnoughts had a surprising utility that I'd never considered before and they were devastating using their flamers against the Harlequin transports. Because I could drop-pod right beside them, both dreadnoughts managed to hit two transports each on the turn they arrived. I was thinking of dropping the flamers to shave points but now I realize that while they're often not very useful, every once in a while that 10pt upgrade pays off huge.

 

- I thought I would have good psyker control after the seer council got dropped but as usual, I could only get a single power off a turn and it was never the "best" power (that one would be denied). This is 3 games in a row now against no pysker defense where I've been disappointed with my inability to do anything in the phase. Maybe I felt a little short changed when I saw how many re-rolls his seer council got! In the one turn they were alive, he got off more powers than I did the entire game... The funny thing is that I always forget to use the Iron Hands chapter tactics. I have never made an IWD or FNP roll and it hasn't seemed to hurt so maybe I should swap to Ultramarines and try to find a way to get Tiburious in there.

 

Otherwise, I'm about 50% done my dreadknight and a second drop pod so I should have pictures ready by next weekend.

[AbusePuppy]

One thing to remember when firing template weapons at a vehicle is that you MUST cover as much of the vehicle as possible with the template, which can often limit your ability to hit other targets. However, Drop Pods do make this positioning a lot more possible. Heavy Flamers are absolute murder against anything with an Open-Topped transport.

 

I'm not sure what you're doing with your psykers, so it's hard to say what's going wrong for you exactly. What tables you roll on, how you divide your casting dice, and how much psychic defense the enemy has are all going to be factors in how many spells you get off, but if you're casting Blessings your enemy should be hard-pressed to Deny more than one spell per turn. If you know you have a really strong spell the enemy is going to throw all their dice at, feel free to cast 2-3 weaker spells first (using just a die or two on each) to try and bait out their Deny attempt- if they use the dice on the small spells you get off the big one unhindered and if they let all your small spells through then hey, you got off several spells, so all the better!

[Guest]

How would you stylize a henchman squad these days for something other than a heavy weapons squad of servitors?

Really depends what you need them to do. Most of the henchmen work just fine if you spam them, and some can work well with combining them together. The entire INQ book is a toolbox of gap fillers and sharpening stones for the AoTI. The bigger question, what does your army need?

[Doug_L]

I've finished my latest two models - a drop pod and the Dreadknight. I was a little shocked at how badly my blending skills have atrophied in the last ten years so I "cheated" with washes! Both models turned out okay but they're not quite what I envisioned in my head. Maybe it's time to get an airbrush...

 

Drop pod (2 are now painted of 3 total. I just noticed now I paint the wings backwards!)

 

Dreadknight (I enjoyed painting the sword but the rest of the model was a drag. I think in future I'll buy that airbrush for big models)

 

Otherwise I've had about a dozen games so far and really enjoy this army. It plays just like how I feel a space marine army should; I can attack anywhere and often try to apply most of my army at couple of weak points, it's lethal at shooting with 24" and holds its own in close combat. The only downers so far is that my late game mobility is poor which has hurt in a few maelstrom missions and my AP3 shooting is weak. This especially hurts as my most common opponent are necrons; I heavily rely on the devastators, close combat and the rending cannons against them.

 

To add some variety, I'd like to start mixing things up with a few ideas below:

 

- I'd never bought forgeworld stuff before but there's a few that look interesting. The Sicaran tank and Deredo dreadnought are awesome models but don't really fit the drop pod theme nor do they really add much to the army as I already have lots of mid-strength AP4 shooting. How about the Storm Rapter? Anyone had any success with this guy? I could fit him into the space marine detachment in a role similar to the storm talons. His AP3 nose cannon looks pretty potent.

 

- How about a Ravenwing detachment? I'd drop the space marines entirely and mix-n-match the Ravenwing with the Greyknights. I'm thinking the grey knight detachment will stay mostly the same, maybe buying an extra squad, but I'd then add a few units of blackknights. With scout and automatically arriving on Turn 2, they should be able to catch up no problem. They'd bring AP3 plasma talons and a huge mobility bonus for late game objectives. The only downer here is that I notice the HQ selection seems kind of broken. I'd want to take them with a librarian on bike but for whatever reason I notice the only valid HQ is Sammael...I may just take the librarian if my opponent agrees but this may be an issue for potential tournaments. To keep the anti-air firepower, I could take the Dark Angel jetfighter or take the storm raven above. Anyone had success with the jetfighter? I wasn't overly impressed with him myself and I'm leaning towards the storm raven.

 

- Another obvious selection is changing the marines into a skyhammer detachment. Unfortunately, this looks pretty disgusting to me and I think I'd only use it if my opponent is bringing a similarly hard army. I already have lots of space marine models and could field 10x assault marines and devastators with 4x plasma cannons and 4x melta using my existing painted models. Is the grav really necessary if I have plasma cannons? The grav definitely looks better but the plasma cannons are already owned and painted...

[AbusePuppy]

The Fire Raptor is a very solid airplane with good guns, but is fairly expensive and doesn't bring anything truly unique to the army (other than AA.) You could certainly do alright with one, but it's not a shoe-in.

 

Ravenwing are quite strong- Black Knights are incredibly tough to kill and the Teleport Homers make sure your guys arrive where you want them. I wouldn't leave them in reserve in your list, except in unusual circumstances- you need that alpha strike to hit the enemy hard. (ITC FAQs and many other tournaments allow you to take DA characters on bikes in the Ravenwing detachment, but you are technically correct in that RAW Sammael is the only legal choice.) The Nephelim is actually a pretty solid little airplane, but including it in a Ravenwing detachment actually has one snag- since it must start in reserve, EVERYTHING in the detachment must always start in reserve, which can be very inconvenient.

 

Skyhammer is really strong and a good complement to Grey Knights. Our local GK player does quite well by it, although you're right that the sheer number of special rules can be intimidating to a lot of casual players. However, it's worth remembering that at the end of the day they're just a bunch of T4/3+ guys, so they can be killed off relatively easily. Plasma is, sadly, not very good- however, it is a relatively easy conversion to turn Plasma into Grav; essentially, it's just a different "tip" for the weapon. The heavier Necron Gauss weapons (off of Destroyers, Barges, etc) are a popular choice for doing the job, but you could also use Tesla if you wanted.

[Doug_L]

That's a good comment about the all-or-nothing for reserve. With that in mind, the jet fighter just won't work as I wouldn't want to accept the risk of none of the grey knights showing up on turn 1 and forfeiting automatically... If that's the case, I'm stuck with using a storm raven in the GK detachment for anti-air firepower. It's not necessarily a bad choice, and I already have the model, but it's not as fun as a new forgeworld model .

 

I played another game today against a new guy with Guard and it did not go well... I'm still getting used to the army so sometimes don't realize how devastating it can be for someone unprepared for it. I wiped out his army on turn 2, causing him to forfeit as the rest of his army was still in reserve. I have a big collection of models gathering dust so I will put together a more friendly, tacticals-and-rhinos list next time when I'm playing someone new! However, for the meantime my regular opponent brings hard-as-nails necrons so here's my next idea. I will swap out the space marine detachment but keep the GK detachment mostly the same. I like to plan my purchasing well ahead because it always take time to find the models from second-hand sources.

 

Inquisitorial Detachment

Inquisitor with terminator armour, psycannon, 3 skulls

 

Grey Knight Detachment

Librarian, Level 3, Terminator armour

 

5 Terminators, hammer, psycannon

5 Terminators, hammer, psycannon

 

Dreadknight, teleporter, Incinerator, Psycannon

 

Stormraven, TL Assault cannon and multi-melta

 

Ravenwing Detachment

Librarian, Level 2, Bike, Auspex, Meltabombs

 

5 Black Knights, melta bombs

5 Black Knights, melta bombs

 

3 Bikes, 2 melta guns, melta bombs

3 Bikes, 2 melta guns, melta bombs

3 Bikes, 2 grav guns

 

It feels pretty mean to me and should take a chunk out necrons. Any thoughts? I may not even need the inquisitor anymore with all the scouting teleport beacons but he's always useful and only 89 points! However, if I drop him and the level 3 I have lots of spare points to play with. I could even consider dropping one of the bike squads on top of that and getting a second dreadknight. The stormraven is another source of extra points but most of the lists I play against often have a flyer or two. He may not be the best choice but it's fun to to shoot down other flyers. 

[Doug_L]

I never got around to trying out the lists I was brainstorming above and have stuck with the 1850pt list below for another few games:

 

Inquisitorial Detachment

Inquisitor with hammer, psycannon and 3 skulls

 

Iron Hands CAD

Librarian, Level 2, Auspex (picks from telepathy or divination)

2x 5 scouts with sniper rifles

1x 3 centurions with grav-cannons, grav-amps

1x drop pod (for centurions and librarian)

2x dreadnoughts with multi-melta, heavy flamer, drop pod

2x storm talons with skyhammer, assault cannons

 

Grey Knights Nemesis Strike Force

Librarian, level 3, cuirass of sacrifice (picks from telepathy or divination)

2x 5 terminators with hammer, psycannon

1x dreadknight with psycannon, incinerator, teleporter

 

Overall my impressions are:

- It generally works well and is a fun list to play so if I change anything, I'd like to keep the feel of it.

- The psychic phase is frustrating. Success on 4+ is a real pain and even though I have 10+ dice every phase with 2 psykers, I treat it like a surprise when it works.

- Body count is a huge pain and I really feel every casualty. I really only have 13 infantry bodies plus characters and dreadknight.

- The dreadnoughts are amazing every once in awhile but most games are knocked out early without making an impact.

- The scouts have never killed anything, ever. They're good for capping objectives and generally don't die by going to ground so probably make up their points there but I have no interest in painting them either...

- Vehicles can be hit or miss. I rely on assault cannon rending or close combat which requires a bit of luck but fortunately, I don't see too many vehicles around anymore.

- It bounces off necrons hard. I play them the most and those guys are super frustrating! I just need a few more bodies to make it to close combat.

 

So, with that in mind I'm thinking of going to the Wet Coast GT in Vancouver this summer and may modify it as below. I want to drop the dreadnoughts and scouts, improve the pysker abilities and improve the body count. This is what I'm thinking:

 

Librarian Conclave

3x Librarians, Level 2, terminator armour, auspex

 

Ravenwing

2x storm talons, skyhammer

1x speeder, multi-melta, assault cannon

 

Grey Knights Nemesis Strike Force

Brother-Captain, Level 1, cuirass of sacrifice, hammer, psycannon

4x terminators, hammer, psycannons (3), incinerator (1)

1x dreadknight with psycannon, incinerator, teleporter

 

 

With no more inquisitor, I'll have to be more cautious with deep strike but honestly, I usually put the skulls in the middle of the board where they are only partially useful anyways. Every other time I've tried to be more aggressive with skull placement the opponent steals the initiative and chases them away. On the plus side, the conclave should make my psyker phase reliable and I now have 20 terminator bodies rather than 13! I lose the scouts who normally cap backfield objectives but the speeder may be able to fill the same function. It still relies heavily on assault cannons and psycannons for popping vehicles but I find rolling all those rending dice highly entertaining. I may change the brother-captain to another librarian to really overload the pysker stuff and shave some points but I think his close combat function and psycannon may be more useful. The loss of grav may hurt if I see a wraith knight but I don't think I'll be winning those games anyways!

 

What do you think - is it a step up or a step down?