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So time to put away the tournament hats for a while. The army thats going to be built at some point in the future, space marines. I don't want to run the battle company it has zero to do with i wanna win I am going off rule of cool to me it might not be cool to everyone but hey. The question for all of you is in regards to certain models.


Attack bikes with heavy bolters and multi meltas


Land speeders in all their forms


The land raider spear head formation pros and cons


Assault marines in full 10 man squads


Scout bikes grenade launchers or not


Scouts in either form


Mass tactical squads 10 man squads


Bikes with non grav weapons




Predators either way




Storm talons


And mass terminators


2 armies I do fight most


Orks and eldar possibly skittari soon.


I like attack bikes and land speeders with heavy bolters for orks and eldar as most of their armour saves are worse than 3+


I'm also looking for stuff on forgeworld units like the rapier batteries, hyperios launchers, the contempor dreads in any form,

The dread naught pods, the death storm pods, the land raiders in all forms, and the flyers any would work, and the super heavy tanks I love all the models and just don't Want to buy all of them. So any tips or reviews prefer a positive review not a this wouldn't work for competitive play review please

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Attack Bikes: Multi-Meltas yes, Heavy Bolters no.


Land Speeders: Ridiculously fragile unless they're Ravenwing, in which case they're only alarmingly fragile. Double Multi-Melta (requires conversion) or Typhoon are probably the best bets.


Land Raider Spearhead:

- Pros: Very difficult to stop with anything but close-ranged Melta and massed Haywire

- Cons: Stupidly expensive. The Formation plus whatever's in them is essentially going to be your Army, so you have no way to screen them from the Melta/Haywire.


Full Assault Squads: I like them, but they're not particularly good by any means. A bit better with Blood Angels (S5 I5 on the Charge, better weapon options) or in a Demi-Company (fast ObSec), but still far from great.


Scout Bikes: The Grenade Launchers aren't great, but they are fun. The Locator Beacon is the standout upgrade for them to me.


Scouts: Solid. BA are best for Assault, the S and I buffs make up for the lower WS in many circumstances. The Vanilla/DA ones can roll with any of the basic loadouts. Keep 'em reasonably cheap, I'm not a big fan of the Heavies. If you're going for one of the close-in options, think about Meltabombs and/or a Combi-Weapon for the Sarge.


Full Tac Squads: A bit inefficient, but still solid. Multi-Melta is my go-to Heavy Weapon here, and then usually either Plasma or Melta with a matching Combi-Weapon on the Sarge.


Bikes: Grav is best, but Plasma and Melta are perfectly usable here still. They can get Flamers into position well, too, but if you're running Assault Squads, you'll probably have fast Flamers there.


Whirlwinds: I still have a fondness for them, but they've been solidly outclassed by the Wyvern at this point.


Predators: AutoLas is my default. Full Las is a decent option too. If you really need Anti-Infantry, the Dakka Predator isn't bad, but that's usually easy enough to come up with elsewhere.


Vindicators: As much as I want to like them, I'm not a fan. Literally every result on the damage table neuters them, unless you're in perfect position already, in which case you have a 1/6 chance of being OK with an Immobilized result.


Storm Talons: I love these things. Skyhammer is totally the best secondary weapon system, but they're really easy to magnetize. Or make swappable in other ways. I just use blu-tac on mine. Cheap, fast, good firepower. Pretty flimsy, but at a price point where I'm OK with it.


Termies: Still largely too expensive. SW probably do them best, since they start pretty cheap and have a really good range of options. DA have almost as much flexibility (and Split Fire, which is often handy), but are more expensive. Everyone else pretty much just runs CC Terminators if they use them at all, from what I've seen.

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So time to put away the tournament hats for a while. The army thats going to be built at some point in the future, space marines. I don't want to run the battle company it has zero to do with i wanna win I am going off rule of cool to me it might not be cool to everyone but hey. The question for all of you is in regards to certain models.


The land raider spear head formation pros and cons



The Land Raider formation with a Psyker to enhance them is pretty nasty.  Thats the one that catches my eye straight away.  It would be nigh impossible to kill those land raiders.

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Hello there,


I agree with earlier posts, especially pretre's post... when I read your post I immediately thought that you should try Dark Angels.


Anyhow, my two cents:


Attack bikes with heavy bolters and multi meltas - I like them, but then again I play Dark Angels and thus have some neat units to have them close to

Land speeders in all their forms - super fun to play and just hose stuff.  I'm a fan of the typhoon missle launchers / heavy bolter combos for the Ravenwing and squadrons of those put out hellacious rates of fire

The land raider spear head formation pros and cons - totally agree with Lord Hanaur.  I know some folks opt for a techmarine inside the "main" one as well

Assault marines in full 10 man squads - I personally take 5-man squads and generally run an IC with them for fun; for example, I pop a jump pack on a chaplain-type and have that group jump around and bash stuff.  But like WestRider stated, not an impressive unit

Scout bikes grenade launchers or not - grenade launchers on Ravenwing Black Knights are more fun for me

Scouts in either form - love taking sniper rifle / missile launchers in 5-man squads and getting them in ruins or something to just pick at stuff

Mass tactical squads 10 man squads - love 10-man squads and usually run them to take advantage of the 2 weapon options

Bikes with non grav weapons - again, I use Ravenwing so love the non-grav weaponry that comes with them

Whirlwinds - used to use them way long ago, don't use them currently

Predators either way - annihilator pattern is cheaper anti-armor than some other options out there; destructor pattern is usually my choice just for more dice rolls and I leave the anti-armor to other, faster units

Vindicators - too cumbersome of a weapon for my playstyle and the vagaries of war often times do not lend themselves to everything lining up for its cannon to make a big difference when you need it to

Storm talons - would be a good option but don't use them with Dark Angels.  However, I am a fan of the Dark Angels' flyer choices so not a huge loss

And mass terminators - Deathiwing Knights wallop stuff; regular terminators are a bit costly unless you just go for broke and stuff them en masse onto a target then the storyline is just epic for ya

Contemptor dreads are super nasty - imagine dual Kheres pattern assault cannons and the missile launcher.  Absolutely tear stuff up, even in an anti-air role.  Plus the model is cool in my opinion


You should really try Dark Angels, I think you'd have fun.  Lots of flexibility from a "fun" perspective on what you can bring and it's really enjoyable to tinker with all their various options.


Stay safe and hope it helped,



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Well I started with dark angels originally when I got into warhammer. Like I said not fighting armies that require a lot of super high strength to get rid of. I know the vindicator under preforms in the sense of if anything blinks at it it does die miserably. I haven't had a chance to look at the new dark angels codex just yet so what has really changed in it. And I was looking at an emperors children theme so dark angels wouldn't really work huh

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And why does everyone say no to the heavy bolters on the attack bikes? 48 inch range with 9 shots from a squad of 3 vs 3 shots from a squad of 3. I understand the high ap high strength thing but if somebody plays orks and isn't running alot of high armour save and nothing more than really just trukk why spend those points on high ap high strength

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And why is grav best if fighting orks it wouldn't be all that great would it since I would wound most likely on a 6. I'm not trying to argue with what you guys are stating for most cases in a environment where I'd fight things like other marines or something but I don't see it being all that great vs orks

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Attack Bikes with Multimeltas are very solid- a great fast-moving anti-tank platform. A couple (such as our French Overlord) swear by the HB version, but I've never liked it much. The main reason is essentially opportunity cost: you can get anti-infantry weapons literally anywhere (even just regular Bolters suffice), but your options for destroying tanks are very finite. Giving up AT weapons in favor of AI ones is a very hazardous choice to make, because while a Multimelta can still kill an Ork in a pinch, a Heaby Bolter will never kill a Land Raider.


Land Speeder Storms are quite good now due to the variety of utility abilities they carry; the "regular" one is still a little bit more expensive than I'd like, but if you avoid the big upgrade guns it's pretty alright. HB+HB is surprisingly effective.


The Land Raider formation is pretty intensely expensive, but functionally turns them into faux-Superheavy vehicles (and makes them pretty decent against other superheavies.) It's not amazing, but it's not awful.


Assault Marines, outside of formations that give them significant bonuses, are pretty lackluster. I guess with double-Flamer in a Drop Pod they're sorta okayish? No reason to take the full 10man, though.


Scout Bikes aren't really being taken for their firepower, so the grenade launchers are a bit of a wash. The ability to put out a pair of Krak Grenades is decent, though; if you're taking a bigger (5+) squad I suppose you could spring for them.


Scouts are quite solid thanks to the stat upgrades. Which armament (Bolter, Sniper, CCW) you go with will depend a lot on the rest of the list, but I think all three have their place. The heavy weapons are better, but still not terribly exciting in most cases- still, they can be a nice distraction-threat for people.


Massed Tacticals really only function as part of the Battle Company; they're just not cheap enough otherwise. The problem is that you need your army to do something, and Tactical Marines are more about holding objectives than affecting the turn-to-turn flow of the game.


Grav is pretty much entirely superior to Plasma; there's no real reason to ever take the latter. Melta is a little bit niche, but it's a viable option- my WS list typically ran 3-4 Grav Squads and 1-2 Melta squads. Flamers... I guess have a purpose, but they seem like a bit of a waste, honestly. I guess if the list was really struggling with horde infantry otherwise...


Whirlwinds are still fairly middling, as they didn't change much. Thunderfires shoot harder, have more options, and are significantly tougher to boot. However, they are at least usable without embarrassing yourself.


Predators are solid when given the TriLas or AutoLas loadout; HB sponsons are a bit of a drag, though. Taking full squads of three ends up being a bit too much firepower concentrated in one place, typically.


Vindicators are generally decent, but if you have a unit of three that manages to fire off its super-mega-blast, they are crazy pants. Remember that hits always get allocated to the nearest member of the squad, so you can protect your weak side armor early on.


Stormtalons are very solid. A flexible and cheap flyer with excellent guns. Skyhammer is definitely the preferred loadout.


Massed Terminators are fairly middling; it's too easy to get AP2 guns and other shenanigans these days. DA do a lot better with them, as others have pointed out.


Rapier Batteries are quite good, specifically the Laser Destroyer version.


Hyperios Launchers are a nice, cheap solution to AA if you need it; they clean up FMCs pretty good and are serviceable against most flyers as well.


The basic Contemptor isn't looking so hot at this point, in part because of the buffs to the basic Dreadnought (who still isn't even that great), but the Mortis Dreadnought and Contemptor Mortis are both useful as AA shooting platforms.

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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

True gravs won't help against most boys, but will help against mega nobs. Keep in mind gravs are a bit point heavy but you can still use your twin linked bolters on bikes if grav doesn't have a target.


Second meltas also double out nobs, killing just as many as heavy bolters a turn. 6 heavy hit 3 wound killing 1.5 nobs. That is nearly the same as meltas but the difference is if it is 1.5 that is two nobs gone, if it is 1 it is one nob gone. Plus meltas can threaten more targets. If you take no meltas elsewhere you should take them here.


Orks love vindies as they are easier to deny shooting and a soft charge target. Take 3 solo or take none.


Melta and grav are way better against eldar the other army you said you play against a lot and they help a lot against skitari too. Grav wound based on armour but you get no save so they are usually about even or better at wounding 4+ or less. Eldar only have 4+ or better. Orks have only even armor values so works great against the heav' boyz or nobz but not against anything else.

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Ok so I totally understand what you guys are saying but to me in basement warhammer there are no bad units just had decisions with those units. Basic idea of a ork list I will fight most of the time


Warboss shiny shoota

Big me sag



12 slugga boyz trukk

12 slugga boyz trukk

12 shoota boyz trukk

12 shoota boyz trukk

Deff koptas


Deff dread

Killa Kans


There's other variations and it doesn't look competitive but the guy who plays the army is a great tactically sound person


I've tried the mass ap2 weapons and it doesn't work what I did discover against him specifically is mass firepower mid strength decent ap will do the trick so

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I don't expect to see this army in play for a long time so perhaps somebody could have a detailed conversation with me about what works best with marines and everything I'm at a point where I just want to play almost just the codex with other things too. Non of my play group like forgeworld but I do because I think it adds to the game for fun and different units.

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Attack bikes: Weapons really depend on what you want/need them to do. In terms of shooting, the MM is hands down more viable, so the heavy bolter option is more if you want the unit for a purpose other than shooting. The DA version has scout and a teleport homer, so the heavy bolter version has some merit as just a teleport homer platform.


Land speeders: Great MSU shooting platforms, though jinking forcing them to snap certainly hurts their damage output.


land raiders: I think a certain mentality is required to enjoy these guys, especially in large numbers. They're turtles on the battlefield, very much reliant on not having their shell cracked. Their damage output is horrid given their cost, so you really must outlast your opponents in order to earn your points back. The transported units only serves to multiply their cost, and further impresses a need to outlast your opponent.

Assault marines: Max size units can always combat squad. Assault marines have lots of uses.


Scout bikes: Grenade launchers are nice, but can underpowered for cost. Also, shooting prevents turbo boosting, so if planning to be a locator beacon unit, you might want to forgo the ranged weapon upgrades in favor of just moving faster. Again, depends what you want them to do.


Scouts: Awesome unit. Always include a squad in every army (unless unfluffy for your chapter). All their weapon and upgrade options are viable, just depends on what you need them to accomplish. 


Mass tactical squads: Boring, but it can certainly work.


Bikes with non grav weapons: All the special weapons have their niche, find the niche you need addressed and kit the bikes for that. Grav is just the best for MEQ, hence why they are so in demand at tournaments.


Whirlwinds: This is a good unit if your army lacks barrage. Barrage is very important for TAC lists, as it really does give you more options. For SM, the whirlwind is certainly second to the thunderfire cannon, but the whirlwind can move and fire, so if running the whirlwind in a SM army, you really need to move it every turn, if only on principle.


Predators: It's an armored devastator squad. Without sponsons, it can be a moving devastator squad too.


Vindicators: Certainly useful and menacing. It's a good unit to draw fire away from a more expensive vehicle target (like a land raider filled with terminators). The shooting is solid, though it's often lacking against MCs due to only being able to inflict a single wound.


Storm talons: DA player, so I don't run these. They look good on the table.


And mass terminators: They work, but it does mean being outnumbered in most games. The non-SM books have better terminators. SW have the most flexible terminators, BA have SM versions with furious charge (which is amazing on all terminators), DA have spendy super-elite terminators, and GK have psyker terminators. Pick your poison. I will note that most/all of the above have terminator only formations/detachments should you just want to add terminators to a SM army.

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Ok so I totally understand what you guys are saying but to me in basement warhammer there are no bad units just had decisions with those units.


Hello, my name is the Pyrovore and I disagree with you. I am easier to kill than two Space Marine Scouts, but also slower and more expensive. However, to make up for it, I am bad in close combat and unable to shoot when out of Synapse range. My only gun has an 8" range, but I move at normal infantry speed and have no special deployment options. Also, if you kill one member of my squad, there is a good chance that I will accidentally kill another member of my squad as a "bonus."


I am the worst unit in the game and my model looks like a big penis.






Well, now that Pyrovore-chan has said his piece, another thing: don't ask for advice on a list if you don't want to take it. If your mentality is "all units can be useful in casual play" that's fine, but why would you ask for our advice if that was what you believed?

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I had forgotten about the provore.... I was looking for more of the yea they can be good against certain units or certain armies but in most scenarios this would be a better choice. But besides the one lone nid model what else is so terrible it doesn't see play at any level of gaming be it basement hammer or apocalypse or leauge games. My post is in regards to space marines and I don't believe that any of the options that space marines can field be it forgeworld or from their codex is bad in any light over costed probably kinda silly sure but terrible no I don't see anything in that light. Heavy bolters are like scatter lasers to me I think hey I have a great rate of fire and a decent strength so in the world of a unit that can pour a good amount of shots into a unit why are heavy bolters bad? So they can't kill a 14 all around vehicle alot of things can't do that but chances are I will have some way to deal with 14 all around tanks such as an imperial knight or another lords of war choice for space marines. If you also noticed I said a few other units that I'd like a they're good or they're not so hot but fun for friendly games or don't waist the money as you can find something better in the standard gw line

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Playing against all infantry lists that have maybe 1 to 2 units of armour is what I mean by why waist the time to just spam multi meltas what if I come against a player who plays the horde armies like a true horde army... spamming alot of infantry ok well that multi melta can do something to one model when my 3 models have a chance to net up to 9 kills based on rolls and luck and bad luck for my opponent. The fire raptor has decent fire power not sure what makes it so hot I would like one if he's gonna be fun to use and I won't feel like a dick doing it but hey

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Well here's my two cents on "terribad" units for Space Marines specifically.


Although I think its borderline and not truly terribad, the NORMAL Terminators just seem like SUCH a waste wen you consider the other options.  From an awesome-sauce standpoint I like them.  But man...  If there is one thing in the codex i can't honestly say i like much?...


The First Company Strike Force Formation certainly adds something to them, and handing them Fear and Fearless (imposing -2 on the enemy LD within 12" which makes their bolters more scary) is certainly a help given they swing last.  I mean it HELPS...  But there again you always end up asking yourself "Why not just Assault Terminators" if you want them for assault or "Why not something entirely" if you want Deep Strikers than can shoot you up a bit before engaging.  


I dunno.  Normal Terminators might take the cake for being terrible IF you really want to look for such a designator.  But even the Terminators can perform well as you say, given the right opponent (namely, one with minimal AP 2)

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 But besides the one lone nid model what else is so terrible it doesn't see play at any level of gaming be it basement hammer or apocalypse or leauge games.


Sergeant Harker is 55pts for a one-wound model with a Heavy Bolter.


Skyslasher Swarms (as well as Old One Eye and The Red Terror) are other additions from the Tyranid codex. We can also toss in the Maleceptor, just because.


Both versions of Tycho are so intensely bad that most people even forget they exist.


Fulgurite and Corpuscarii Electro-Priests are great examples of newfangled versions of units so bad that no one ever, ever takes.


Fuegan the Burning Lance is a 200pt Meltagun. And I don't think I've ever seen a unit of Storm Guardians in over ten years of play.


Brotherhood Champions and GK Dreadnoughts are both well into the "why would you ever" territory.


The Voidweaver has a gun you can never use. I don't think anyone believes it's good.


I love Trazyn the Infinite, but he's just an expensive guy with a Power Maul now. He's garbage.


Pretty much every Space Wolf character that isn't riding a Thunderwolf has been sitting on the shelf since 2E.


So yeah. There's a lot of "so bad no one ever takes them" units in the game, more than just one.

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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

Don't you know opening a thread you are bound to get derailed. Next minute you know someone will pop in and talk about warmachine or WOW.


I think assault centurions are straight junk.


I imagine the tools you need against ork will be different than what you need against eldar.


I would highly suggest meltas on attack bikes with what you face. Killa kans and deft dreads can be scary units if left unchecked.

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Oh I know they can be. And I know the tools will be different. I just don't know why I'd look for meltas on bikes when I can have meltas on land speeders or legion of the damned or dreadnought with multi meltas. I understand the need for the weapons trust me I just want a stable platform that can do much like a ghost ark shoot a high volume of shots and do some damage.

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