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Outside of competition


derek

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Ok so back on topic can we give some relevant information about the units I asked about? I'm looking for its good in these scenarios sorta good at this not good at this and I wouldn't bother in these scenarios again I play against an infantry heavy ork army so

Against infantry heavy orks, ironically, normal terminators are great!!!

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Against infantry heavy orks, ironically, normal terminators are great!!!

Not really. Even against basic attacks and with things that basic firepower will hurt, Tactical Squads are more durable and killy, Point-for-Point.

 

70 Points worth of Termies:

24 Shoota Hits to kill

4 Bolter shots out to 24"

1 2/3 Ork kills in CC, if they're still around after the Orks attack

 

70 Points worth of Tactical Marines

30 Shoota Hits to kill

5 Bolter shots out to 24", 10 within 12"

~1 Ork kill in CC, but it's before the Orks get to strike

 

Oh I know they can be. And I know the tools will be different. I just don't know why I'd look for meltas on bikes when I can have meltas on land speeders or legion of the damned or dreadnought with multi meltas. I understand the need for the weapons trust me I just want a stable platform that can do much like a ghost ark shoot a high volume of shots and do some damage.

Heavy Bolters are badly overpriced most places they show up, but Attack Bikes are one of the worst cases. For 40 Points, you can get an Attack Bike with a Heavy Bolter and TL Bolter, or for 50 you can get a Speeder with 2 Heavy Bolters. Or for 95 you can get a Predator with 2 Heavy Bolters and an Autocannon.

 

Multi-Meltas can be taken in other places, but they're particularly good on Attack Bikes because they're faster and cheaper than Dreads, more durable than Speeders, and easier to hide than either, so they're good at sneaking up into that 12" Range.

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Heavy Bolters are badly overpriced most places they show up, but Attack Bikes are one of the worst cases. For 40 Points, you can get an Attack Bike with a Heavy Bolter and TL Bolter, or for 50 you can get a Speeder with 2 Heavy Bolters. Or for 95 you can get a Predator with 2 Heavy Bolters and an Autocannon.

Your not really paying for heavy bolter on the attack bike. It's a freebie to keep the points balanced. HB attack biker is a dirt cheap marine option, but he's already about as cheap as they could make him without increasing the base squad size or further cutting away his options.

 

As for speeder vs biker, the speeder is better as a shooting platform, hands down. You'd take the biker because you want a non-vehicle unit.

 

And on a side note, the attack bike can opt to throw a grenade in place of one of it's two shooting attacks, so it isn't just the TL bolter and the HB, it can be a HB and a krak grenade (range permitting). You should also be able to fire the HB and operate a gun emplacement with the same attack bike (same target) - though I may be forgetting some restriction on infantry only....

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The Land Raider Achilles is a massive pain in the butt to deal with. Between TL Multi-Meltas and a TFC, it's got enough firepower that it's not really ignorable, and immunity to Lance and Melta cuts out a big chunk of the threats to it. Add on Schism of Mars for protection from Haywire if you want.

 

The Sicaran only has the Accelerator Autocannon in 40K, I think. There's also a version with no turret and a Hull-mounted Neutron Laser, but I think that one's 30K only. The regular version is one of the best Tanks in 40K, tho. I haven't gotten around to building mine yet, but it looks like a relatively straight-forward kit.

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The Land Raider Achilles is a massive pain in the butt to deal with. Between TL Multi-Meltas and a TFC, it's got enough firepower that it's not really ignorable, and immunity to Lance and Melta cuts out a big chunk of the threats to it. Add on Schism of Mars for protection from Haywire if you want.

Yeah, I've run the achilles a few times. Even did the schism of mars and really got durable (though I misread the rule and didn't realize it also gave me tank hunters.... :sad: ).

 

That said, it's a 4 hp vehicle that costs very close to a baneblade....easily the most expensive LR variant with a base cost of 345pts. It also holds only 6 models and lacks the assault vehicle rule - this really changes the fundemental function of the LR.

 

As for the Hyperios, I've only run it as an upgrade for the Land Raider Helios, and and I've never really faced an enemy flyer when I did so. Still, it's a LR with 2 TL lascannons, and a skyfire+interceptor weapon which can be split fired via the machine spirit - it's awesome in that it doesn't waste weapons like that heavy bolter version. Still, Helios is 280pts like this and only holds 6 guys (but retains the assault vehicle rule). This is a good LR variant for 3-man terminator units.

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Heavy Bolters are badly overpriced most places they show up, but Attack Bikes are one of the worst cases. For 40 Points, you can get an Attack Bike with a Heavy Bolter and TL Bolter, or for 50 you can get a Speeder with 2 Heavy Bolters. Or for 95 you can get a Predator with 2 Heavy Bolters and an Autocannon.

I have to say, I think TL-HB razorbacks are the exception. They still aren't an amazing weapon, but I don't think razorbacks are overpriced on the heavy bolter level.

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So forgetting about why everyone says heavy bolters bikes are bad how about tips on other things like the forgeworld land raiders? Curious about those wanna know how they play out.

The Mortis Dreadnought (two of same ranged weapon on both arms) is amazing and easily worth the points in any army. You get skyfire+interceptor optionally if you are stationary in the previous movement phase, so no turn 1 intercepting if you go first or pod onto the table. It's a very solid AA and AT option rolled in one. I've fielded both the TL lascannon and the TL autocannon variants.

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I have to say, I think TL-HB razorbacks are the exception. They still aren't an amazing weapon, but I don't think razorbacks are overpriced on the heavy bolter level.

 

I thought they were too expensive (although not vastly so) at 40pts- at 55pts, I think it's a really long stretch to make an argument for them.

 

The GK Psyback (TLHB with Psybolt) for 50pts was a pretty fair buy, though- the difference between S5 and S6 is actually quite significant when it comes to shooting vehicles, MCs, etc.

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I thought they were too expensive (although not vastly so) at 40pts- at 55pts, I think it's a really long stretch to make an argument for them.

 

The GK Psyback (TLHB with Psybolt) for 50pts was a pretty fair buy, though- the difference between S5 and S6 is actually quite significant when it comes to shooting vehicles, MCs, etc.

Wait, are they 55pts? Meh, 55pts for a AV11 6-man transport with TL HB is fine. It's not going to win the game or anything, but it's fine. Killed a Culexus with it in one game, but that's the most it's done on it's own.

 

Those psybacks are still fair game in codex INQ. Not sure on the points. They've got the old style chimeras too, with like 6 fire points...

 

I will note that the AV11 vehicles got a nifty boost in 7th with those dozer blades adding to our AV for tank shock and rams. Razors and Rhinos can glance imperial knight side armor with rams, should they have a dozer blade.

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I find it kinda funny that you don't let the cost of the vehicle change your opinion of it. That seems... kinda indicative. :P

 

And yes, Inquisition can still get Psybacks (and Chimeras with Psybolts, too)- that's one of the reasons that, awkward as their detachment is, I still like Inquisitorial forces.

 

Trying to Ram an Imperial Knight to death is pretty much the definition of a desperation tactic.You have to get into the right arc the turn before (as you can't pivot during a Ram), it has to stand still, and then you have to have it be on its last HP anyways and get that magic '6' on the pen roll, because if you don't that Str D melee is gonna crush you like a bug. I'll also point out you have a higher chance of hurting yourself (S7 hit on AV11) than you do the Knight, even just during the Ram process itself.

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On topic: Speeders are better for a.heavy bolter platform if needed. Plus, the additional heavy synergizes well with bike squads, the other option.

 

Personally, 10 man assault squads have too big a footprint these days except in a Skyhammer, and even then, combat squad!

 

Vs. Orks, insufficient attacks. Vs. Eldar, either overkill or blast bait- depends on the list.

 

Termies: Always had a soft spot, but with only a single heavy, limited mobility options, and only 5++- really hard to use. I've been using tactical termied more often than not for 15 years- last few editions, they are good at changing a local force concentration, full stop. As in, invest in a handfull of teleport homers, use them as a one time mobile reserve, they've won me plenty of games, sure- but not with any single use I can kust explain.

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On phone, so continung: They're best sern as "if I could drop another Tac squad of firepower down, is there somewhere it might make a difference" mixed with "is there a AP2-free tarpitting option" and a dash of "will some chainfists get to swing in another turn *and* make a difference"- the "a nearly dead DP/Tyrant/Thirster is slowly eating another big squad" Hail Mary.

 

There's nothing they are good at, is the.problem-except maybe being 2+ str 8 MC/vehicle/walker killers- and hammernators are better at it.

 

Else, Spartans rock. Mortis dreads ate cool. It's mainly a shooting game with mobility today, or a mobility with supporting shooting for maelstrom.

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I find it kinda funny that you don't let the cost of the vehicle change your opinion of it. That seems... kinda indicative. :P

 

And yes, Inquisition can still get Psybacks (and Chimeras with Psybolts, too)- that's one of the reasons that, awkward as their detachment is, I still like Inquisitorial forces.

 

Trying to Ram an Imperial Knight to death is pretty much the definition of a desperation tactic.You have to get into the right arc the turn before (as you can't pivot during a Ram), it has to stand still, and then you have to have it be on its last HP anyways and get that magic '6' on the pen roll, because if you don't that Str D melee is gonna crush you like a bug. I'll also point out you have a higher chance of hurting yourself (S7 hit on AV11) than you do the Knight, even just during the Ram process itself.

Most of the time, I run the razorback with TL lascannons, or Las/TL Plas, which hasn't changed in cost, so I haven't really noticed the cost difference on the HB level, as the versions I've used haven't changed.

 

Can't find my BRB at the moment, but I'm very sure you can pivot prior to the ram, you just can't pivot during the ram.

 

And, yeah, ramming a knight is a desperation tactic. That said, the Knight can't death or glory and their shields don't apply to ram attacks (as they only work in the shooting phase). And it's AV12 front with a dozer blade, which does apply to receiving ram damage, I believe, so long as it's in the front arc of the razor, they get that higher AV. And razor is S6 with the dozer, +1 for being a tank, so it's a S7 hit on the Knight in the side or rear. Still horrid odds, but it's a funny option.

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