Ordo Bowl Persistent League

[savion47]

Discourse, then?

of course. Everyone can share their thoughts here. Hearing what people want makes my job easier.

[michaels]

Cool!  I'll try to keep this pitchfork & torch-free.

 

Stuff I flat-out hate or am not certain about:

 

1) Piling On. Elephant in the room. Clawpomb definitely needed to be fixed for the 1800+ game but this seems like a pretty heavy-handed & not too well-thought-out approach to it. I preferred Plasmoids "+1 generic modifier to foul rolls" idea as it was heavily playtested & didn't completely break the combination of "killer" skills.

GW's approach feels like they tacked it on without really thinking about it &, in essence, breaks the skill. I don't see anyone taking it...ever. No one will want to carry 50k+ of bloat for something they might use in a match. It doesn't just hurt the high-tv mutation teams, it also gives a huge assist to stunty teams as they no longer have to worry about their fragile players getting rolled on twice. UW/lizard didn't really need that boost.

 

2) Claw. It would be more reasonable to just remove the modifiers from it. This also fixes part of the clawpomb issue as you'd have to roll an 8+ naturally to break AV against other bash teams.

Here's a fun table on AV break chances with/without this modifier.

 

http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm

 

So not a huge change but enough of one to nullify a bit of the clawpomb supremacy at certain tv's.

 

3) Human catchers. Making them cheaper isn't as good as the BB2 change (which I stated earlier). GW even endorsed that change when the game came out but then immediately backpedaled when they decided to release a new boxed set. The main issue I see with human catchers is they get recycled quite frequently due to low av/str, making them prime targets. Their naturally high movement means they're part of the humans primary scoring power &, unlike other teams, humans don't have as much in their bag of tricks to compensate for the loss of them.

Lacking the strength of orcs & the speed/agility of elves, there's not much to fall back on once the catchers are taken out of the game. After 1500 tv humans really start to suffer as that's when the claw & MB really start to come out & the casualties pile up. Giving the catchers some durability, & the chance to develop because of it, seemed like a much better idea than giving coaches the funds to recycle them every match.

Another option that seems better would be to give them 3str, making them almost as good as an elf lineman. :|

 

4) No wizards? What? How do you stop the stat-jacked elf teams from two-turn-scoring when you're down 150k+ in TV? Furthermore, how do the down-on-their-luck skaven teams with their 3 loners & 11 total players compete vs burly orcs after a bad match the week before? As they're not implementing TV++ or potions I'm not sure what else can be used to counter some playstyles/teams

 

                                 

 

5) The 2 new teams that Cyanide created are no longer canon. They were until GW changed their mind. Now they're not. I don't think a lot of people would pick these teams so it's somewhat negligible but the flip-flopping is still irritating. Neither team is top-tier so it's not very game-changing but going from 'we like these teams' to 'we don't like these teams so now you can't use them' is somewhat irritating.

 

6) Arguing sent-off players. Seems like a no-brainer. Deathroller gets sent off, argue, hopefully roll a 6, -1 to a very small chance that you'll get the event that gives a reroll. Dwarf & goblin coaches rejoice! There's no real repercussion to not using this. I get that it adds some fluff but the one time that dwarf coach rolls a 6 this rule is gonna be awful.

 

Stuff that I do like:!!!

 

1) The rulebook is laid out better. YIPPEE!

 

2) New MVP Rule. Ironically, the MVP rule is similar to the one I suggested last season (CRP optional, MVP's can't be stars or dead players) that was shot down immediately.

 

3) Drafting/Re-drafting seems neat but I haven't got to read the full rules on it yet.

 

4) Expensive Mistakes seems like a good idea (another one I haven't got to read the full rules on yet) much like the BB2 bank rule. In BB2, everything over 150k tv counted towards team value. It definitely adds another aspect to the game for teams with less player recycling & takes away some of the edge high AV teams have in being able to replace players so easily.

 

5) Cards. Haven't seen em. I'd like to if they can be as drastic as it sounds. I'm firmly in the 'to hell with Sweltering Heat & Pitch Invasion events' as they change the outcome of the game in such an immense way that it doesn't matter how well you play. The 30% luck that BB involves is a fine amount to manage but that number increases quite a bit based on these two events & adding to that seems like a bit much.

Again, I haven't seen the cards yet so I'm not 100% either way.

 

No opinion:

 

1) Weeping Dagger. Not as helpful as a foul but could be used to massage the playoff standings a bit. The chance of a GR throwing a block AND getting a casualty are pretty slim.

[sbr]

I mostly agree with michaels on the above.

 

Whether Piling On needed a change or not the one they came up with is silly and I think makes it a skill that willl never be taken, removing it from the game..  I have seen other ideas that are decent:  can only be taken on Big Guys (old version rule?), make it similar to a foul so a certain die roll gets the PO player sent off, or to the KO box, PO player has to roll armor, make fouling more effective, etc.  The removal of the skill hurts a lot of other teams more than the CPOMB Chaos and Nurgle; those teams already have the ability to remove players without Piling On.  It does hurt teams like Humans, Dwarves, Norse, Amazon, etc that need to remove players to stay competitive but now lose a major tool from the toolbox.

 

As far as Claw goes I don't get too worked up, but I rarely play at very high TV even online, can't see it being a huge issue in this league.  Also I have Werewolves. 

 

I like Human Catchers as AV8 instead of cheaper but not enough to get worked up over it.

 

Wizards are a must have, especially if we are going to be adding new fresh teams to a league with teams that have already played a season.

 

As a Necro coach I love the new MVP rule, no SPP on Zombies!!

 

I do't know enough about any of the rest to really comment, though the rebuying of players would need to be carefully balanced. I've heard you get extra money for wins, TDs, Cas; if you aren't careful the strong teams could stay strong while weaker/newer teams might suffer.  Again don't know enough details to know for sure though.

 

My opinion on the cards is exactly the same as michaels, he hit every concern I have almost word for word.

[sbr]

Also Star Players.  What is teh status of them in the new version?

[Burk]

Also Star Players.  What is teh status of them in the new version?

same as CRP.

[Burk]

Cool!  I'll try to keep this pitchfork & torch-free.

 

Stuff I flat-out hate or am not certain about:

 

1) Piling On. Elephant in the room. Clawpomb definitely needed to be fixed for the 1800+ game but this seems like a pretty heavy-handed & not too well-thought-out approach to it. I preferred Plasmoids "+1 generic modifier to foul rolls" idea as it was heavily playtested & didn't completely break the combination of "killer" skills.

GW's approach feels like they tacked it on without really thinking about it &, in essence, breaks the skill. I don't see anyone taking it...ever. No one will want to carry 50k+ of bloat for something they might use in a match. It doesn't just hurt the high-tv mutation teams, it also gives a huge assist to stunty teams as they no longer have to worry about their fragile players getting rolled on twice. UW/lizard didn't really need that boost.

 

2) Claw. It would be more reasonable to just remove the modifiers from it. This also fixes part of the clawpomb issue as you'd have to roll an 8+ naturally to break AV against other bash teams.

Here's a fun table on AV break chances with/without this modifier.

 

http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm

 

So not a huge change but enough of one to nullify a bit of the clawpomb supremacy at certain tv's.

 

3) Human catchers. Making them cheaper isn't as good as the BB2 change (which I stated earlier). GW even endorsed that change when the game came out but then immediately backpedaled when they decided to release a new boxed set. The main issue I see with human catchers is they get recycled quite frequently due to low av/str, making them prime targets. Their naturally high movement means they're part of the humans primary scoring power &, unlike other teams, humans don't have as much in their bag of tricks to compensate for the loss of them.

Lacking the strength of orcs & the speed/agility of elves, there's not much to fall back on once the catchers are taken out of the game. After 1500 tv humans really start to suffer as that's when the claw & MB really start to come out & the casualties pile up. Giving the catchers some durability, & the chance to develop because of it, seemed like a much better idea than giving coaches the funds to recycle them every match.

Another option that seems better would be to give them 3str, making them almost as good as an elf lineman. :|

 

4) No wizards? What? How do you stop the stat-jacked elf teams from two-turn-scoring when you're down 150k+ in TV? Furthermore, how do the down-on-their-luck skaven teams with their 3 loners & 11 total players compete vs burly orcs after a bad match the week before? As they're not implementing TV++ or potions I'm not sure what else can be used to counter some playstyles/teams

 

                                 

 

5) The 2 new teams that Cyanide created are no longer canon. They were until GW changed their mind. Now they're not. I don't think a lot of people would pick these teams so it's somewhat negligible but the flip-flopping is still irritating. Neither team is top-tier so it's not very game-changing but going from 'we like these teams' to 'we don't like these teams so now you can't use them' is somewhat irritating.

 

6) Arguing sent-off players. Seems like a no-brainer. Deathroller gets sent off, argue, hopefully roll a 6, -1 to a very small chance that you'll get the event that gives a reroll. Dwarf & goblin coaches rejoice! There's no real repercussion to not using this. I get that it adds some fluff but the one time that dwarf coach rolls a 6 this rule is gonna be awful.

 

Stuff that I do like:!!!

 

1) The rulebook is laid out better. YIPPEE!

 

2) New MVP Rule. Ironically, the MVP rule is similar to the one I suggested last season (CRP optional, MVP's can't be stars or dead players) that was shot down immediately.

 

3) Drafting/Re-drafting seems neat but I haven't got to read the full rules on it yet.

 

4) Expensive Mistakes seems like a good idea (another one I haven't got to read the full rules on yet) much like the BB2 bank rule. In BB2, everything over 150k tv counted towards team value. It definitely adds another aspect to the game for teams with less player recycling & takes away some of the edge high AV teams have in being able to replace players so easily.

 

5) Cards. Haven't seen em. I'd like to if they can be as drastic as it sounds. I'm firmly in the 'to hell with Sweltering Heat & Pitch Invasion events' as they change the outcome of the game in such an immense way that it doesn't matter how well you play. The 30% luck that BB involves is a fine amount to manage but that number increases quite a bit based on these two events & adding to that seems like a bit much.

Again, I haven't seen the cards yet so I'm not 100% either way.

 

No opinion:

 

1) Weeping Dagger. Not as helpful as a foul but could be used to massage the playoff standings a bit. The chance of a GR throwing a block AND getting a casualty are pretty slim.

 

 

couple of things.  not sure how long you have played (ie how back editions), but Cards are what has historically stopped 2 turn TD teams with a higher TV  (3rd edition talking here)

 

Arguing the call.  Straight out of 3rd ed.  they removed it after 3rd.  I like it back.  As to the teams it hurts......undead/necro.  without a coach you cant regen (at least that way in 3rd.  Havent read the new book enough to see if they added that back in.

 

I would not expect a change to the teams (human catchers, weaping blades etc) in a league.  Only the league rules.

[michaels]

Got it. Thanks, Burk. I started on the Competition Rulebook so a lot of the older stuff I'm not aware ever existed before (not sure why they would remove it then add it back, for that matter). Those were my 'at-a-glance' gripes & things that seemed like good ideas. I didn't intend it to be a whole damn manifesto but apparently I get to typing & can't bring myself to stop. :)

We did use some cards two seasons ago in the league but they either seemed to not matter or fail miserably (ask Biggles, it was glorious failure) so I haven't really seen any that can stop the infamous elf touchdown.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Got it. Thanks, Burk. I started on the Competition Rulebook so a lot of the older stuff I'm not aware ever existed before (not sure why they would remove it then add it back, for that matter). Those were my 'at-a-glance' gripes & things that seemed like good ideas. I didn't intend it to be a whole damn manifesto but apparently I get to typing & can't bring myself to stop. :)

We did use some cards two seasons ago in the league but they either seemed to not matter or fail miserably (ask Biggles, it was glorious failure) so I haven't really seen any that can stop the infamous elf touchdown.

***Grumble***

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

[big bad swear word] gw for calling those skaven dice. They have no special markings it's just color. The case isnt even branded. Don't bother tracking them they are a joke.

[Burk]

[big bad swear word] gw for calling those skaven dice. They have no special markings it's just color. The case isnt even branded. Don't bother tracking them they are a joke.

the numbers are skaven-y.

[Burk]

Got it. Thanks, Burk. I started on the Competition Rulebook so a lot of the older stuff I'm not aware ever existed before (not sure why they would remove it then add it back, for that matter). Those were my 'at-a-glance' gripes & things that seemed like good ideas. I didn't intend it to be a whole damn manifesto but apparently I get to typing & can't bring myself to stop. :)

We did use some cards two seasons ago in the league but they either seemed to not matter or fail miserably (ask Biggles, it was glorious failure) so I haven't really seen any that can stop the infamous elf touchdown.

 

read the new cards they are more brutal then the current cards.  at least 3 of them can stop a TD pretty easily.  Not a guarantee, but a high percentage....just like a wizard.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Cards are better than a wizard for sure. I haven't read it but I would like the idea that cards become the great equalizer. I look forward to more expansions. I like that each card is actually usable. I think only 2 felt completely situational.

 

Actually dice is same font :(

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I just got done glancing through books and I really like all the new rules. I think they did a good job. I would have to agree piling on seems fruitless. I do think clawmb is still very powerful and a small adjustment would have been nice. MB only impacting injury roll and no affect on armor roll or boost only armor roll.

 

I think the drop in price in catcher works as they are good vanilla and really only need block to be really good. Drop in price helps keep the team fully rostered. I also think no wizard was a good move. As they couldn't be competitive with cards.

 

I like the league rules a lot.

 

Overall minimal grumbles. I think this will be wonderful as we should get some greay fresh meat. Now to pick my race. I want to do skaven but afraid with release that might be popular. I might go back and play another race already or branch out to another.

[savion47]

Calling pro elves/elves/Elvan union.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Was putting together wood elves... so might go with them.

[Kelharis]

If my order from Impact! comes in time, I will be running Chorfs.  If not, I will either play Dorfs or Flings...

[pistachio]

I'll do Skaven as I picked up two boxes to asemble and paint. I haven't played since...wow, 2nd edition? 1988? Put me into the newbs tier.

[savion47]

I'll do Skaven as I picked up two boxes to asemble and paint. I haven't played since...wow, 2nd edition? 1988? Put me into the newbs tier.

Weav is running a refresher/teaching session every Thurs. at GG starting at 5PM if you need it.

[savion47]

For those who have not gotten the new rules here is a link to the changes from CRP:

 

http://www.thenaf.net/2016/11/from-crp-to-bb2016/

[michaels]

For those who have not gotten the new rules here is a link to the changes from CRP:

 

http://www.thenaf.net/2016/11/from-crp-to-bb2016/

Can you post the redrafting rules & process?