Drawn to Pain and Blast damage

[McNathanson]

I find myself using Witchling Stalkers as a target for Sonnia's Ca attack, so that I can cheat down their Defensive flip, and win by enough to cheat up the Damage to Mod or Severe to get the Blast on enemy models!

 

However I'm not sure how the Stalker's Drawn to Pain rule interacts with placing Blast markers.

 

I *think* that the Blast marker is part of Sonnia's Ability, and the Stalker's push is a Trigger, the push would go first.  Is that right?

 

Here's the Drawn to Pain rules text:

 

"Df (M) Drawn to Pain: After failing an opposed Df duel but before suffering damage, push this model 4” towards the Attacker."

and here's the relevant rulebook entry on Blast marker timing, which says you place the markers before dealing damage (even to the original target):

 

"If a blast is part of a damage flip (which is usually the case)
place one Blast Marker for each blast symbol (b) in the
Damage Severity flipped. The blast deals diminished
damage to models who aren't the original target. The
damage dealt by a blast from a damage flip is one step lower
than the damage flipped for the initial blast. An Attack with
a 2/3b/4b that deals Moderate damage, for instance, would
place one Blast Marker (due to the one b on the Moderate
damage), and deal 3 damage to the original target, and 2
damage to each other model within the blast.
It is important to note that the original target does not
take damage twice from the Attack. The Blast is placed,
and then all models suffer damage as noted above.
Remember, the Red Joker's damage is stepped down to
Moderate (not Severe) damage."

 

 

The example makes it extra clear that the original target suffers damage after placing the Blast markers:

 

(and as usual, it's actually using one of the models in our own example, hah!)

 

"Lilith is struck by an Attack with a damage code of
2/3b/4b. The damage flip resulted in Severe damage,
so the Attacker places a 50mm Blast Marker. The Blast
Marker overlaps the base of the Young Nephilim. Lilith
suffers Severe damage (4) and the Young Nephilim
suffers Moderate damage (3)."

 

Finally here's the text on Actions/Triggers and timing:

 

"General Timing

Most Abilities grant a passive effect, some of
which have their effect when a model suffers
damage or is killed. Whenever any Ability
happens at the same time as any Triggers,
the Triggers are resolved first. If two Abilities
happen at the same time, resolve them in the
following order:
1. The Acting Model resolves its Abilities.
2. The Defending Model (if there is one)
resolves its Abilities.
3. Any other models controlled by the
First Player resolves all of their Ability effects
in any order the First Player chooses.
4. Any other models controlled by the
Second Player resolves all of their Ability
effects in any order the Second Player
chooses."

 

 

Am I correct?

Thanks!
Nathan

[Mach_5]

To me that means you activate the trigger before flipping for damage. Flipping for damage is what you do to determine how much you suffer, its all sort of simultaneous, which is why they describe placing the blasts and then inflicting the damage (especially because the blasts are still placed even if the original target gets killed and removed from the table by the attack).

 

Note that since it's your Witchling, you don't have to activate the trigger, even if you get the suit you need.

[McNathanson]

Right on the option to activate the trigger, thanks for the reminder... but are you saying then that it's "simultaneous" and therefore as the controlling player, I get to decide which order?

[Mach_5]

No, I mean the damage flip is simultaneous with placing blasts and suffering damage. If the witchling activates its trigger, it pushes before suffering damage and before placing blasts, IMO.

[McNathanson]

Right, that was my read: they are happening in the same step but since the push is a Trigger it goes first.  Cool.

[Mach_5]

 

The Blast is placed,

and then all models suffer damage as noted above.

Remember, the Red Joker's damage is stepped down to

Moderate (not Severe) damage."

The example makes it extra clear that the original target suffers damage after placing the Blast markers:

 

I'm guessing this is the biggest source of confusion. If you take the blasts out of the equation, damage flip = damage suffered. Witchling trigger happens first, as it happens before damage suffered. Blasts are placed before you physically mark down the wounds on the witchling, but in my eyes damage flip + blasts + damage suffered is all simultaneous, and logically, nothing is getting hit by a blast caused by a detonation centered on a point where the witchling was if the witchling pushed 4" before being hit.

[Mach_5]

Right, that was my read: they are happening in the same step but since the push is a Trigger it goes first.  Cool.

"Step 5. Determine Success" was an issue I brought up repeatedly during the beta. There's way too much stuff going on in that step and some confusion could have easily been avoided by adding another step or two (how about "step 6. resolve effects/inflict damage?"). As it is, and its a hard one for most people to wrap their heads around, triggers that happen "After succeeding", "After damaging", or "After resolving" are all simultaneous, the first just triggers if successful, the second if damage was dealt, and the last regardless of the outcome, but they all happen at the same time, after all is said and done at the end of step 5.

 

 

Edit: Also the Witchling trigger goes first because it states "before suffering damage". A trigger which stated "after damaging" would obviously go after the blasts were placed and everyone suffered damage and all other action effects were resolved.

[orkdork]

It is what Lilith gets for flipping that damned black joker on her wicked vines :)

[McNathanson]

Yes, clearly the Triggered push happens before damage, the question was just around whether the markers are placed before the push, after the push, or player's choice.  Not super confusing (not ambiguous like GW rules) but wanted to make sure I was "doing it right" because I'm too lazy to read the entire book :)

[orkdork]

Drawn to pain is only on a mask, right?

[Mach_5]

Yep.

[dkieft]

I think the best/simplest way to look at it is that the damage track consists of W/M/H and so the things in there are the damage... and that is where you find if you get blasts or not, and so "Blasts is Damage".

 

Seems already settled... but you know I like to get a word in.

[Marcalla]

Bird!